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  • #46
    Originally posted by Artbuc View Post
    I am beginning to think Peter Attia is nothing more than a big blow-hard himself but at least he is a MD. In his cholesterol series he strongly and unequivocally said LDL-P is the ONLY thing that matters; however, in his "personal journey" blog written a couple years earlier, he talks about the importance of LDL particle size. I asked about this conflict. To his credit, he promptly answered. However, his answer was we really don't know because the science is unsettled. Well, if that is the case, why was he so adamant and unequivocal in his cholesterol series? Wow....
    Yeah, Cholesterol is not a completely understood area. We still do know a bit. Just not the full picture. And the CW picture is definitely full of holes.
    Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

    Griff's cholesterol primer
    5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
    Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
    TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
    bloodorchid is always right

    Comment


    • #47
      There is an area that Chris Kresser studies called functional medicine. This does not make him an endocrinologist, but it does make him much more qualified to pontificate on complex biochemistry than your run of the mill acupuncturist. If you are interested in what this mode of health care is see here Institute for Functional Medicine > Home.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by magicmerl View Post
        Yeah, Cholesterol is not a completely understood area. We still do know a bit. Just not the full picture. And the CW picture is definitely full of holes.
        I guess what really bothers me is folks like Attia, Dayspring, Dall, etc ridicule CW and self-confidently espouse their LDL-P and/or LDL particle size theories as though they are self-evidently true. Then you find out that the science supporting these anti-CW theories is so sketchy it makes CW look more than credible. The reason I started this thread was wondering about the connection between VLC and CVD. That is, VLC down regulates thyroid which reduces LDL receptor activity which increase LDL serum residence time which causes LDL to oxidize and form plaque (according to Masterjohn and Kresser). I guess I have to pick my poison and I am picking VLC to manage my BG.
        Last edited by Artbuc; 11-15-2012, 04:49 PM.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
          There is an area that Chris Kresser studies called functional medicine. This does not make him an endocrinologist, but it does make him much more qualified to pontificate on complex biochemistry than your run of the mill acupuncturist. If you are interested in what this mode of health care is see here Institute for Functional Medicine > Home.
          OK. While I agree with their holistic, patient centered approach, that is still only a "certification" available over the internet. That is not the same thing as going to medical school.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Artbuc View Post
            Chris Masterjohn and Chris Kresser say there is ample evidence that restricting carbohydrates can adversely affect thyroid function which in turn can down regulate LDL receptor activity. Kresser says he has had patients who were low carber's and exhibited the classic symptoms of hair falling out, etc. Symptoms usualy resolved when carbs were added back to the diet.

            I am curious if any of you VLCarber's have suffered from decreased thyroid function? If yes, how did you know you had a problem and what did you do about it? Thanks.
            I provided this info in another post a while ago:
            My understanding:
            The possible issue with VLC for some people does not impact the function of the thyroid. It can impact thyroid hormone conversion. Thyroidmanager.org* suggests that people need a minimum of 50 grams/day of glucose for good T4( storage hormone)to T3( active hormone) conversion. With this in mind, ingesting less than 50 grams of carbs/day long term MAY negatively impact conversion.

            I recall reading somewhere (can't remember where) that an issue with VLC and conversion is person specific- not impacted at all, impacted quickly with VLC, impacted after long term VLC or something in between.

            That being said, other things can impact conversion as well:
            1. Not eating enough
            2. Low selenium. 200mcg/day is needed
            3. Low Vitamin D
            4. Low ferritin
            5. Stress
            * Effects of the Environment, Chemicals and Drugs on Thyroid Function Thyroid Disease Manager
            scroll down to Nutrition
            The Non-Thyroidal Illness Syndrome Thyroid Disease Manager
            scroll down to Low T3 states

            My thoughts--If you are VLC and feeling/functioning fine/symptom free then VLC most likely isn't an issue for you. If, however, you are suffering from hypothyroid symptoms-- fatigue, cold intolerance, weight gain etc. I would make sure the things listed above are optimal. Then, if symptoms persist, I would look at diet- am I have eating enough calories and I'd experiment with increasing my carb level.

            If after doing all that, symptoms still remain I think it's time for testing-- Thyroid( TSH, FT4, FT3, antibodies) Vitamin D, ferritin. Low T3 issues generally present with truly normal TSH, normal FT4 and low FT3.

            I also do not think discussing VLC and it's possible impact on thyroid hormone conversion is fear mongering. I see it as educational. Each person is different. How we as individuals react to specific foods, macros, etc. is not "one size fits all". The more information we have the better choices we can make, helping us have the best life we can.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Artbuc View Post
              I guess what really bothers me is folks like Attia, Dayspring, Dall, etc ridicule CW and self-confidently espouse their LDL-P and/or LDL particle size theories as though they are self-evidently true. Then you find out that the science supporting these anti-CW theories is so sketchy it makes CW look more than credible.
              I get what you are saying, although I think that you are exaggerating. I think that the truth is somewhere in the general region of LDL-P and LDL particle size (they are really the same thing, since small LDL particle size will mean in increase in LDL-P), there's just uncertainty about the actual mechanism. Whereas CW CHD treatment is solving the wrong problem altogether (since high cholesterol levels do not cause CHD), so it's pretty hopeless.

              This is the same as people losing weight when they go low carb. It's fairly inarguable that people do lose weight, but is it because:
              a: They stopped eating processed junk
              b: They stopped eating wheat/sugar
              c: They stopped eating carbs
              d: They spontaneously reduced their overall calories


              Opinions are still divided as to the actual cause. And really, they can all be a bit true as well. But the 'science' isn't clear as to the exact mechanism.

              Originally posted by Artbuc View Post
              The reason I started this thread was wondering about the connection between VLC and CVD. That is, VLC down regulates thyroid which reduces LDL receptor activity which increase LDL serum residence time which causes LDL to oxidize and form plaque (according to Masterjohn and Kresser). I guess I have to pick my poison and I am picking VLC to manage my BG.
              Fair enough. Go with what works for you. At least you are now more informed and when the next bit of research about LDL receptor activity comes out you will be light years ahead of everyone else in terms of understanding what it means in your own personal health journey.
              Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

              Griff's cholesterol primer
              5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
              Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
              TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
              bloodorchid is always right

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by marcadav View Post
                I provided this info in another post a while ago:
                My understanding:
                The possible issue with VLC for some people does not impact the function of the thyroid. It can impact thyroid hormone conversion. Thyroidmanager.org* suggests that people need a minimum of 50 grams/day of glucose for good T4( storage hormone)to T3( active hormone) conversion. With this in mind, ingesting less than 50 grams of carbs/day long term MAY negatively impact conversion.

                I recall reading somewhere (can't remember where) that an issue with VLC and conversion is person specific- not impacted at all, impacted quickly with VLC, impacted after long term VLC or something in between.

                That being said, other things can impact conversion as well:
                1. Not eating enough
                2. Low selenium. 200mcg/day is needed
                3. Low Vitamin D
                4. Low ferritin
                5. Stress
                * Effects of the Environment, Chemicals and Drugs on Thyroid Function Thyroid Disease Manager
                scroll down to Nutrition
                The Non-Thyroidal Illness Syndrome Thyroid Disease Manager
                scroll down to Low T3 states

                My thoughts--If you are VLC and feeling/functioning fine/symptom free then VLC most likely isn't an issue for you. If, however, you are suffering from hypothyroid symptoms-- fatigue, cold intolerance, weight gain etc. I would make sure the things listed above are optimal. Then, if symptoms persist, I would look at diet- am I have eating enough calories and I'd experiment with increasing my carb level.

                If after doing all that, symptoms still remain I think it's time for testing-- Thyroid( TSH, FT4, FT3, antibodies) Vitamin D, ferritin. Low T3 issues generally present with truly normal TSH, normal FT4 and low FT3.

                I also do not think discussing VLC and it's possible impact on thyroid hormone conversion is fear mongering. I see it as educational. Each person is different. How we as individuals react to specific foods, macros, etc. is not "one size fits all". The more information we have the better choices we can make, helping us have the best life we can.
                But you've still got the causality sideways. VLC does not *cause* thyroid problems. Someone who has thyroid problems, and there are a lot of un-diagnosed cases out there, may not do well on VLC. It is fear mongering to say, "Well, you can go VLC if you want but you should know that it can make your hair fall out". NO. The thyroid problem you already had is making your hair fall out.

                I definitely agree with you however that there are a lot of other factors to be considered such as nutrient deficiencies and overall food deficiency plus issues such as stress and sleep deficiencies to be considered. Then a person should be thoroughly checked out by an endocrinologist because putting the blame on VLC and eating some more carbs will make you feel a little better but it will not make a thyroid disfunction go away.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                  But you've still got the causality sideways. VLC does not *cause* thyroid problems. Someone who has thyroid problems, and there are a lot of un-diagnosed cases out there, may not do well on VLC. It is fear mongering to say, "Well, you can go VLC if you want but you should know that it can make your hair fall out". NO. The thyroid problem you already had is making your hair fall out.

                  I definitely agree with you however that there are a lot of other factors to be considered such as nutrient deficiencies and overall food deficiency plus issues such as stress and sleep deficiencies to be considered. Then a person should be thoroughly checked out by an endocrinologist because putting the blame on VLC and eating some more carbs will make you feel a little better but it will not make a thyroid disfunction go away.
                  It's not a thyroid dysfunction. It's a conversion problem. The majority of T4 to T3 conversion happens in the liver, kidneys, brain, etc.- not in the thyroid.

                  And, from my experience, endocrinologists are often not very good thyroid doctors. Many tend to be TSH worshipers.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by marcadav View Post

                    And, from my experience, endocrinologists are often not very good thyroid doctors. Many tend to be TSH worshipers.
                    +1

                    I've had 2 different enocrinologists and neither were able to help with my thyroid issues. I'm finally on Armour now so I'm guessing I have a conversion problem.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      "Dysfunction" is a general term which includes conversion problems and all other issues. The point is that the VLC didn't *cause* it.

                      And no, not all endocrinologists are perfect but at least they went to medical school and did not get and online certification.
                      If yours isn't good, find one who is.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        I have a pre-existing thyroid problem, and if I go VLC (~30g/day or less) my hypothyroid symptoms get worse, AND my T4 and TSH numbers get worse. I tried the "eat moar fat" method, had problems with it, and my doc did the labs and found that my T4 and TSH were off. Instead of increasing my Synthroid, she suggested I increase my carbs to +/- 75g a day, and that did the trick. My symptoms have abated, but it hasn't been long enough to test my thyroid levels again (yet). My doc is just a general practitioner, not any sort of endocrine "expert", but she believes what I tell her, thinks and researches, and generally agrees with the primal approach to nutrition.

                        I don't know how reliable the research on VLC and thyroid is, but that's my n=1 for pre-existing thyroid problems and VLC.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Goldie View Post
                          I have a pre-existing thyroid problem, and if I go VLC (~30g/day or less) my hypothyroid symptoms get worse, AND my T4 and TSH numbers get worse. I tried the "eat moar fat" method, had problems with it, and my doc did the labs and found that my T4 and TSH were off. Instead of increasing my Synthroid, she suggested I increase my carbs to +/- 75g a day, and that did the trick. My symptoms have abated, but it hasn't been long enough to test my thyroid levels again (yet). My doc is just a general practitioner, not any sort of endocrine "expert", but she believes what I tell her, thinks and researches, and generally agrees with the primal approach to nutrition.

                          I don't know how reliable the research on VLC and thyroid is, but that's my n=1 for pre-existing thyroid problems and VLC.
                          Exactly. You are someone for whom VLC is not optimal due to a pre-existing health condition. But you are not going around saying that lack of carbs caused your thyroid problems. No, it exacerbated the symptoms. And, conversely, eating more carbs is the way to go for you because it eases the symptoms, but it does not treat or cure your thyroid issues. For that you still need a trained physician not an acupuncturist.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            I really was gonna just let this get back to low carb and thyroid since I completely agree with you in that regard Paleobird, but I should point out that the FM site we were discussing is fully accredited by the "Accreditation Council for Continued Medical Education". I would put more trust in an acupuncturist that has undergone this training than an MD that has not. But, thats just me. There are plenty of MD's that have taken the course work and they are listed if that makes someone more comfortable though. Given your history I can understand your trepidation. Having a look at the functional medicine approach to hypothyroid symptoms myself though, I just see much greater depth in both diagnosis and treatment. Alrighty, back to your regularly scheduled programming .

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                              I really was gonna just let this get back to low carb and thyroid since I completely agree with you in that regard Paleobird, but I should point out that the FM site we were discussing is fully accredited by the "Accreditation Council for Continued Medical Education". I would put more trust in an acupuncturist that has undergone this training than an MD that has not. But, thats just me. There are plenty of MD's that have taken the course work and they are listed if that makes someone more comfortable though. Given your history I can understand your trepidation. Having a look at the functional medicine approach to hypothyroid symptoms myself though, I just see much greater depth in both diagnosis and treatment. Alrighty, back to your regularly scheduled programming .
                              As I said, I like the FM approach. As an addition to a medical degree it would be great, in fact I think it should be compulsory. But an internet "certification" is not a medical degree. But I would rather this thread wasn't about CK and his credentials. I take issue with his unfounded assertions about carbs and thyroid issues. The only reason his credentials or lack thereof are relevant is that a trained physician would know better.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                I started eating paleo style for about a month and have been having stomach issues (pain,discomfort,constipation), a lot of hair loss, weight gain and fatigue lately. I've just noticed that I have been eating about 10 grams of carbs daily, 70% of cals from fat. If I start eating more carbs will my symptoms reverse?

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