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  • #31
    I'm not familiar with any single website that covers all that stuff, so I'm sorry I can't help you out there, NaLi.

    I was linked to this video as my own introduction into paleo.
    Youtube - Paleo in a Nutshell Part 1: Food
    I have a background in biology so the concept immediately clicked with me and I wanted to do further research straight away. It does address the ancestral nutrition thing though, so maybe it doesn't suit your needs. It definitely does explain the paleo principles using easy language though. Give it a watch and see if it'd be suitable to show patients?

    Why the hell isn't nutrition a mandatory high school subject? What you are trying to set up is great, but trying to educate people after they've been sent to the ER is a good indicator of how misguided our society is. [/angry_rant]

    Oh and try not to get frustrated if you are met with resistance. Fear of liability is a bit of a plague in my eyes, and I can imagine an ER director being real weary before stamping this.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by magnolia1973 View Post
      I do wonder about some aspects of primal/paleo, mainly the fat, and is the fat still OK if you buy normal meats. If the pastured is really critical, I can't see many people paying for and sourcing pastured animals. I would worry about people eating increased amounts of factory meat. Is a plate of Hormel Bacon, factory farmed eggs, cooked in butter from a cow that got hormones actually BETTER than a bowl of oatmeal? You run the risk of making "junk food paleos" like the junk food vegans that eata soy hot dog on a white bun with a side of chips and call it healthy.

      I guess dietary education requires more than a one minute elevator speech.
      Oh, there is definitely a wrong way to do paleo. One of my friends' coworker claims to be paleo; for lunch, he eats a few packages of packaged bologna.
      F 28/5'4/100 lbs

      "I'm not a psychopath, I'm a high-functioning sociopath; do your research."

      Comment


      • #33
        I actually just had a great conversation with my doc about barefoot running after seeing her in a pair of Trail Gloves. She had no idea there was a "movement" or whatever behind it, just that she knew it felt better to have little/no heel and sole for work.

        I think people need just a little taste or sliver to hang onto that will eventually lead them to the whole concept. The trick is making that first piece applicable to the individual and easy to swallow.
        SixStringStrength.com

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        • #34
          Originally posted by NaLi View Post
          What I am looking for is a website to refer to that:
          1. explains the paleo principles,
          2. in a language geared towards people with no scientific background or interest,
          3. without referring to paleo/primal/grok/ancestral nutrition logic,
          4. that is not owned and moderated by a single person (especially if this person has a financial interest in promoting this diet or appear mildly insane), but rather a non-biased not for profit organisation,
          6. with an active and friendly user forum (like this one!)
          7. that I incorporate in a formal patient education policy for review by the Director of the Emergency Department and other units (and the hospital kitchen!) without appearing too subversive. Or too crazy.
          I don't think you can find something like this out there. Maybe you can come close with this page: LCHF for beginners | DietDoctor.com . What you might consider doing is making your own website that you can refer people to. Then you can just put as little or as much information as you think needs to be said. Maybe link out to some research or other websites that are almost "not crazy" if you think that is needed for some people, but otherwise keep things simple. Skip the forum because unless you blog like crazy and are a search engine optimization master, you'll hear crickets chirping on your forum.
          Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

          Comment


          • #35
            What about the Weston A Price website? Not paleo, but some very sound principles there.
            Started Feb 18 2011

            Tried basic primal and almost everything else in pursuit of IBS control, mood stability, and weight loss.

            Journalling here

            Comment


            • #36
              There's always Loren Cordain's book about the Paleo Diet. It's an easy read and was my foray into this lifestyle. I realize there are some differences between Paleo and Primal, but I consider those to be relatively minor when comparing the overall lifestyles. Look, if you're going to offer patients this advice at some point some combination of the words paleo, primal, caveman etc. are going to come up in their research if they even get that far. And if they do get that far there is at least some interest on their part. They are either going to accept it or not, and nothing you say or do will matter. I think you are right when you state as an ER doc you have limited time and no follow up. All you can do is give your best advice and move on. Like I said before, with most people it will be an uphill battle. Not in your hands or power to change that so I wouldn't worry about it. You made the effort and should sleep well at night.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by NaLi View Post
                Hello,

                So, for now, I'll stay semi-closeted. I am interested in hearing your thoughts on this. Also, if there are any paleo friendly doctors out there with experience on formalizing patient education, that would be great.
                If you are interested in fellow medical providers, here are a few links I have:

                Chris Kresser, Food fascism and the 80/20 rule

                Colin Champ, M.D. radiation oncology. Caveman Doctor

                Dr. Cate Shanahan Family Physician

                Peter Attia, M.D.

                Dr John Briffa

                Dr. Kurt Harris he no longer publishes but his website is till up

                There are many more medical folks out there. All the above are paleo advocates.
                Primal/Paleo is not for everyone, it's for those who have committed to understand.
                READ THE BOOK! ...as Robb Wolf says: "Trying to convince people to save their own ass will burn you out."

                Vegetarians are the enemy of everything good and decent in the human spirit, and an affront to all I stand for -- the pure enjoyment of food. Anthony Bourdain

                and yes, calories DO count my little piggies

                Comment


                • #38
                  I checked out some of the sites suggested here... Weston A. Price - interesting stuff, but way to alternative for me to propose at work (cherry juice concentrate for gout? fine to try, but there's no way I could send a patient with an acute gout attack home with that advice...). The Whole9 seems interesting, and I'll add it to the list of websites I recommend to patients, but can't refer to it when discussing hospital policies.

                  I guess my concern is less with patient education (in spite of the title of this thread) but more with education of staff. I went through the sites by medical providers suggested by Moochy, and realised that almost none of them have published much in peer reviewed journals. The only nutrition related article I could find was a review article by Dr. Colin Champ on low-fat vs low-carbohydrate diet in breast cancer patients. Dr. William Davis (Wheat Belly) claims that he barely performs invasive therapy for his heart disease patients anymore because of reversal of disease after changing their diets. Why can't I find anything by him on PubMed? A solid randomised trial might be too costly and not practical, but surely a case series or a concept paper would be easier to write than an entire book? did he write them and was rejected? or did he think incorporating his theories in mainstream cardiology would not be accepted? I am confused as to why MDs would write books aimed at the general public rather than propagating their ideas and theories on nutrition via academia? no funding? too hard? or just no evidence? or financial interest?

                  I am not trying to discount their work, nor do I disagree with the theories on nutrition. But it seems to me that many MDs seem to have left "mainstream medicine" for holistic medicine or alternative medicine. Is it an either/or situation? I am a conventional doctor and have no intention of becoming an alternative medicine practitioner. I deal with fractures, acute heart attacks, appendicitis and no amount of high quality whole food is going to fix you once you're in this situation. I know doctors get a lot of criticism for pushing pills, but imagine the amount of criticism if we don't prescribe drugs. Would you prefer a doctor who overprescribes or underprescribes? Still, I think there is tremendous unrecognised value in preventative activities and feel there is no reason why this should not be a greater part of mainstream medicine.

                  I do think, however, that it is still too early for the principles of the paleo diet to be incorporated in conventional medicine from a top down approach. I think that high quality research and hard evidence will not be available any time soon, this is not absolutely necessary. Lots of things we do is not based on any evidence at all. (probably most of what we do...). I'll continue to educate my patients the way I have been, and will probably put something down on paper to hand out to people who are interested. Not sure if it will be frowned upon by higher management, but I'd rather not ask.

                  Finally, a question. Or a poll. Who on this board educates their doctor? I have read many stories about people getting results and surprising their doctors with it. Does anybody give their doctor information? How do you do it? How do they respond? Would you given them a handout - brief written documentation about the principles of the diet and some websites and publications to reference? I am wondering if this would be a way to encourage MDs to improve their knowledge on nutrition (since it's so terrible) and maybe even recommend it to other patients....

                  Sorry for the long post, but am curious to hear your thoughts...

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    I am a member of a large health network, and as such, my doctor sees me for the current health problem I am having and is completely unconcerned about the state of my health otherwise. I have never been overweight, and I think the health network only cares about the state of my health when I am normal weight and doesn't care if I am too thin. There were no concerns raised when my weight dropped below 80 pounds 5-6 years back (I am 5'4) due to thyroid issues, and I had to come in to get that examined before that was ever a concern, yet when my weight went back up to 127 at its highest, I got a call from a nurse regarding my weight gain and was advised to eat low fat, whole grains, and to exercise, which I had been doing all along. I would not dream of talking about anything besides the current illness whenever I saw my doctor.
                    F 28/5'4/100 lbs

                    "I'm not a psychopath, I'm a high-functioning sociopath; do your research."

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      I mentioned in another thread somewhere I'm highly impressed with modern emergency medicine. It has become a lifesaver for many and diet doesn't matter in those cases. Where modern medicine seems to be lacking is in the overall health of the general population...preventative-wise. A pill is always the fix. My doc (who I actually like and think is pretty good) basically gave me a vague lose weight comment last year when I went on all the pills. Two months ago when I saw him he was duly impressed w/ my weight loss but didn't ask how I achieved it. I'm waiting for him to ask actually; next time I see him the weight loss is going to be significant. The proof is in the pudding as they say.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by NaLi View Post
                        I checked out some of the sites suggested here... Weston A. Price - interesting stuff, but way to alternative for me to propose at work (cherry juice concentrate for gout? fine to try, but there's no way I could send a patient with an acute gout attack home with that advice...). The Whole9 seems interesting, and I'll add it to the list of websites I recommend to patients, but can't refer to it when discussing hospital policies.
                        I think this is one reason why you don't find a lot of mainstream doctors discussing this kind of health advice. You know better than I do the risks involved in stepping outside the mainstream.
                        Originally posted by NaLi View Post
                        I guess my concern is less with patient education (in spite of the title of this thread) but more with education of staff. I went through the sites by medical providers suggested by Moochy, and realised that almost none of them have published much in peer reviewed journals. The only nutrition related article I could find was a review article by Dr. Colin Champ on low-fat vs low-carbohydrate diet in breast cancer patients. Dr. William Davis (Wheat Belly) claims that he barely performs invasive therapy for his heart disease patients anymore because of reversal of disease after changing their diets. Why can't I find anything by him on PubMed? A solid randomised trial might be too costly and not practical, but surely a case series or a concept paper would be easier to write than an entire book? did he write them and was rejected? or did he think incorporating his theories in mainstream cardiology would not be accepted? I am confused as to why MDs would write books aimed at the general public rather than propagating their ideas and theories on nutrition via academia? no funding? too hard? or just no evidence? or financial interest?
                        How many MDs are still in academia? I probably don't understand how the whole publishing thing works, but it seems to me that if you are in practice you're not necessarily within academia with access to the whole peer-reviewed publishing process.
                        Originally posted by NaLi View Post

                        I am not trying to discount their work, nor do I disagree with the theories on nutrition. But it seems to me that many MDs seem to have left "mainstream medicine" for holistic medicine or alternative medicine. Is it an either/or situation? I am a conventional doctor and have no intention of becoming an alternative medicine practitioner. I deal with fractures, acute heart attacks, appendicitis and no amount of high quality whole food is going to fix you once you're in this situation. I know doctors get a lot of criticism for pushing pills, but imagine the amount of criticism if we don't prescribe drugs. Would you prefer a doctor who overprescribes or underprescribes? Still, I think there is tremendous unrecognised value in preventative activities and feel there is no reason why this should not be a greater part of mainstream medicine.
                        I don't think preventive medicine is actually valued in typical modern medicine. It's not often in the "standard of care" they are required by insurance companies to follow. It takes the physician sitting down to talk to their patient for a significant amount of time. It takes getting to the bottom of the reason for a symptom rather than just treating the symptom. Many naturopaths leave regular medicine just so they can have the time and the freedom from top-down, insurance industry-prescribed treatment options to do this.
                        Originally posted by NaLi View Post

                        I do think, however, that it is still too early for the principles of the paleo diet to be incorporated in conventional medicine from a top down approach. I think that high quality research and hard evidence will not be available any time soon, this is not absolutely necessary. Lots of things we do is not based on any evidence at all. (probably most of what we do...). I'll continue to educate my patients the way I have been, and will probably put something down on paper to hand out to people who are interested. Not sure if it will be frowned upon by higher management, but I'd rather not ask.
                        Exactly. It's too early or too impossible to be done within the current system.
                        Originally posted by NaLi View Post
                        Finally, a question. Or a poll. Who on this board educates their doctor? I have read many stories about people getting results and surprising their doctors with it. Does anybody give their doctor information? How do you do it? How do they respond? Would you given them a handout - brief written documentation about the principles of the diet and some websites and publications to reference? I am wondering if this would be a way to encourage MDs to improve their knowledge on nutrition (since it's so terrible) and maybe even recommend it to other patients....

                        Sorry for the long post, but am curious to hear your thoughts...
                        I haven't been to my doctor since I changed my way of eating. Should I go back and he's not retired, I hope my cholesterol is improved enough that I can have that conversation. If it isn't, then I won't have the conversation with him because I wouldn't want him to think my diet is bad for everybody. I simply do not (and never have) believe that high cholesterol is necessarily a marker for poor health. And I honestly do not think my doctor would be willing to accept a long list of other health improvements I could give him, especially the more subjective ones, as reasonably strong proof against a high cholesterol number (if I have one, I don't actually know my cholesterol).
                        Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          I agree with sbhikes suggestion to make your own, basic, website!

                          There are some very easy, free website builders - you could set something up in a spare afternoon (wix, weebly) or a spare weekend (wordpress).

                          You've identified a need - website that lays out the basics with links to "real" research. That shouldn't be too hard to set up. It doesn't have to be flashy. You could consider your website a portal to others.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            I am a physical therapist and agree with your findings that the majority of people seem to just want that quick fix (surgery, pills etc.). That being said when you encounter someone who is willing to listen then I say go for it. You can cite the information that is currently coming out that supports lo-carb without being paleo specific. Write down a couple of different websites that promote the basics of good health (protein, veges, fruit, movement, relaxation and life) and state that there are many different approaches to a healthy lifestyle. I agree with Pamsc and her comment about saying, "this has worked really well for me." I constantly have people stop me and ask me how I stay in shape and as soon as I tell them that I don't eat processed food, sugar or grains and I work out regularly...they get this glassy look on their faces..Damn, I really need to invent that pill......

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              If you're looking for someone that has had some success with Paleo/Primal on a larger scale, then I would check out Robb Wolf's website. The financial aspect may be more convincing to those higher up, along with seeing that they wouldn't be a guinea pig.

                              He has been doing a risk assesment program with the city of Reno, Nevada, working with their police and fire departments. I haven't followed the whole story, but eating Paleo/low carb as he suggested seems to be saving the city a crapload of money in health related costs. More info on his website - Can Managed Care Benefit From the Paleo Diet - Paleo Diet Risk Assessment.
                              Durp.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Thank God I'm not alone! I registered here today because of this thread. As a home health nurse I struggle with the "official diet teaching" and what I know to be true. I have settled with teaching the commonalities: eat a whole foods diet. Even if they gorge themselves with fruit and beans at least it's a start. I also throw in that all those "whole grain" products are only LESS processed. If I'm dealing with colleagues, I find Gary Taubes book and the studies in it to be very helpful... although, I've found that the overweight smoking nurses are really not that interested anyway and would be more interested in the truth or even in the massive changes they've seen in my body. I compare it to sharing my faith-- people really don't care about things that even work for you until they want it for themselves. You should have seen the questioners that were interested once the "biggest loser" contest happened

                                As for patients, they are individuals. I tailor my teaching to whatever I think they'll understand best and what I think they can do.

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