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  • #16
    I think most people who eat a ketogenic diet don't find the wide selection of foods to be limited in palatability at all and a ketogenic diet does not eliminate a host of leafy greens and non starchy vegetables along with meats, fish and a variety of healthy fats.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
      And exactly what point is opinion? That calories are the driver of weight loss and gain? Or that ketosis limits food choices and palatability? Because they are both facts.
      Both statements are your opinion with the former being a bit over simplified. The second is plain out incorrect. A keto diet does not limit food choices any more so than any other 'diet'. A keto diet moderates carb intake regardless of source and further more can be adjusted with increased activity levels to allow more CHO while staying in ketosis.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by anelae22 View Post
        Both statements are your opinion with the former being a bit over simplified. The second is plain out incorrect. A keto diet does not limit food choices any more so than any other 'diet'. A keto diet moderates carb intake regardless of source and further more can be adjusted with increased activity levels to allow more CHO while staying in ketosis.
        Yup. Food reward is an opinion...a hypothesis with as many holes in it (actually I think more) as the insulin hypothesis. Neither are all encompassing, but both are working on it. I like Stanton's series on this if anybody is interested. Why Do We Ever Stop Eating? Taste, Reward, and Hyperpalatability (Why Are We Hungry? Part VII) - GNOLLS.ORG. From that ...

        "Lemmens et.al. demonstrates that eating delicious, highly “liked” food (food with high hedonic reward, aka “palatable” food) does not necessarily cause us to eat more. In fact, in their experiment, the subjects were less motivated to earn more food after eating the chocolate mousse than after the cottage cheese!" Not a ringing endorsement for the food palatability hypothesis.

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        • #19
          I've been reading this book: http://www.owndoc.com/pdf/The-fat-of-the-land.pdf It's by Vihljalmur Stefansson, the guy who lived with eskimos in the very early 1900s and who went a year in a metabolic ward study eating only meat and water. It's really interesting. He did enjoy and even looked forward to all the meat he ate once he got used to the idea of not having variety in his diet. I don't think he would describe it as "low reward", but since he was living in an era before rampant overuse of MSG and MSG-like artificial flavorings, it probably was low reward. What's really amazing is that eating all the organs wasn't necessary. What's appalling is he ate and liked putrified fish.

          You can't get much simpler a plan than an all meat diet. If you want to add an apple, go ahead. He said that after a while, stuff like apples didn't really appeal to him anymore.
          Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by anelae22 View Post
            Both statements are your opinion with the former being a bit over simplified. The second is plain out incorrect. A keto diet does not limit food choices any more so than any other 'diet'. A keto diet moderates carb intake regardless of source and further more can be adjusted with increased activity levels to allow more CHO while staying in ketosis.
            1.) Weight loss and gain is entirely caloric. You cannot gain weight without consuming an energy surplus. You cannot lose weight without an energy deficit. There is no metabolic advantage to different macronutrient ratios for solely weight loss. This is a fact and not an oversimplification. It just really is that simple.

            Ketogenic Low-Carbohydrate Diets have no Metabolic Advantage over Nonketogenic Low-carbohydrate diets | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald

            How We Get Fat | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald

            The Sensible Middle Part 1 In Defence of Calories | Core Concepts Wellness

            Finally, a Study that Proves a Low-Carb Metabolic Advantage? Yeah, Right… AnthonyColpo

            New Swedish Low-Carb Study: Another Load of Epidemi-Hogwash AnthonyColpo

            Another Weight Loss Study Showing Compliance is More Important than Diet Type AnthonyColpo

            Whole Health Source: Calories and Carbohydrate: a Natural Experiment

            2.) Ketogenic diets will only work due to one reason: calorie restriction. If you are losing weight on a ketogenic diet faster than any other kind of diet, it can only be because you are maintaining a different greater calorie deficit. This could be for several reasons:

            a.) You find the food to be more filling, so you eat less of it.
            b.) There are less choices and therefore you are less interested in food as a whole.
            c.) The food doesn't taste as good, so you don't want to eat as much.

            This is such a brilliant article.

            Cheat Day Strategies For A Hedonist | Intermittent fasting diet for fat loss, muscle gain and health

            Originally posted by Martin Berkhan
            4. Limit choices, not amounts.

            Studies show that when people are presented with multiple food-choices, they eat more. In fact, calorie intake during a buffet scales almost linearly with the amount of different foods to choose from. If I offered you unlimited amounts of turkey and cheesecake, you'd likely only eat so much of it before you felt "full" and satisfied.

            However, if I threw a third food into the mix, like potatoes or chocolate pudding, you'd end up eating a lot more - even if you weren't a fan of potatoes or chocolate pudding in normal circumstances. Humans are wired a bit funny and some behaviors are maladaptive in our environment of excesses. Having a taste of everything was a good strategy during our evolution, since it protected again micronutrient-deficiencies.

            By "mentally limiting" the food choices you allow yourself, i.e. only eating that which you absolutely love and crave, can be a very effective strategy in regulating calorie intake without feeling deprived. Remember, you don't need to taste of every damn food or treat that is offered. Stick to that which you truly enjoy eating and skip the rest.
            And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why a ketogenic diet works for some people. The limited food choices make people less obsessed with food since they don't feel the need to "try everything on the table," the overall blandness of the diet discourages overconsumption and the invariably greater intake of meat and very fibrous vegetables leads to slower digestion and increased satiety. Which allows for a more easily maintained calorie deficit.

            It's that simple.
            Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 10-21-2012, 08:15 PM.
            Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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            • #21
              ^ It's that simple if you wanna take a third grade approach to it....and you just proved the point about opinion by listing a few other peoples opinions that happen to coincide with your own. So yeah. That about does it "ladies and gentlemen" .
              Last edited by Neckhammer; 10-21-2012, 09:28 PM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                ^ It's that simple if you wanna take a third grade approach to it....and you just proved the point about opinion by listing a few other peoples opinions that happen to coincide with your own. So yeah. That about does it "ladies and gentlemen" .
                A third grade approach? It takes less than a third grade intelligence to understand CICO. It's just addition and subtraction. That's not opinion. The fundamental issue is people hate the term "calories" and refuse to accept it for many reasons, most of them being issues with owning the reality that they're responsible for their own health problems. It's not easy to accept that for some. But that doesn't matter. You can hate the term "air," but it's still what you breathe. Call it whatever you want.
                Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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                • #23
                  CICO. Okay, if we’re going to believe it, then let’s believe what goes with it.

                  CICO assumption: If you eat 3500 calories more than you use over time, you’ll gain one pound. And conversely, if you eat 3500 calories less than you use over time, you’ll lose one pound.

                  Based on some of the calorie calculators around the web, it takes approximately 1890 calories per day for a 200 pound sedentary woman age 55 to maintain her weight. That would be 58,590 calories in a 31 day month.

                  Also at this weight, walking approx 3.5mph (that’s slow; about a 17 minute mile), this woman burns about 288 calories in 40 minutes. Again, using various calculators on the web.

                  Let’s now say that this woman eats 1200 calories per day, five days per week. On the weekends, she lets herself splurge and eats 1500 cal on Sat and Sunday.

                  5 x 1200 = 6000
                  2 x 1500 = 3000

                  6000 + 3000 = 9000 for the week or an average of 1286 calories per day.

                  1286 x 31 = 39,857 = her calories eaten for the month.

                  Let’s also assume that she takes that 40-minute walk 22 days out of the month.

                  288 (calories burned per walk) x 22 (days) = 6336 calories burned walking in a month.

                  She’s only changed those two things in her life. She hasn’t found Primal, she’s not counting proteins/carbs/fats. She’s a CICO believer to a fault.

                  Let’s do the math:

                  58,590 calories to maintain her weight
                  -39,857 calories she ate “dieting”
                  18,733 her calorie deficit just on the food
                  +6,336 the calories she burned walking this month
                  25,069 = calorie deficit + calories burned

                  25,069 divided by 3500 cal per pound = 7.16 pounds. That's the amount she should have lost in one month mathematically.


                  But I am here to tell you that doing exactly that, I lost 21 pounds the first month, and between 12 and 14 pounds the subsequent three months. I did find Primal around month three, but that just meant no more pasta, bread, beans, and I started (slowly) tossing things like reduced calorie mayo, butter substitutes, etc. in the garbage. The numerical equation stayed the same - actually the deficits got smaller as I got smaller, so I should have been losing even less weight. I even had a binge day on my birthday that included all manner of raw and fried seafood, and tons of beer and tequila. It wasn’t until I got below 140 that weight loss slowed.

                  So, given all of that, while I’m still a ‘counter,’ I’ve known for a long time that it can’t just be CICO. Something else is at work. I have some theories, but since I doubt anyone will fund me, they are just theories.
                  Last edited by JoanieL; 10-21-2012, 11:21 PM.
                  "Right is right, even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong, even if everyone is doing it." - St. Augustine

                  B*tch-lite

                  Who says back fat is a bad thing? Maybe on a hairy guy at the beach, but not on a crab.

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                  • #24
                    Mark posted a research article link not long ago that showed a faster weight loss on a high fat diet rather than a high carb diet. The human body and its metabolic processes are very complex. Calories in calories out has pretty much been debunked by a number of researchers. In my own experience also it had been debunked. My calorie counter program says I can only eat about 900 calories per day to lose the amount I am losing. I eat much more than that. More like double. And I do minimal exercise.

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                    • #25
                      I disagree with Choco on his argument that it is the "blandness" of Ketogenic diets that make people lose weight. People lose weight faster because their appetite is more controlled not because there are not a lot of ample choices to pick from. Occassionally one has the luxury of going to different poshy restaurantsand most of the items on the menu are highly creative, interesting, fancy but low carb by default.

                      Most often, I go to eastern european meat markets and I can buy up the whole smoke meats section because they all look and taste so good. Or are we talking about the chinese markets with their different flavours and kinds of fish and seafood, or is it the EXTREMELY diverse range of vegetables that one can buy at these places? Then there are fruits that one can still have (in moderate quantities of course).

                      The good thing with being in Ketosis is that I am in control of when and how I eat as hunger and/or craving a particular thing is not a death sentence anymore BUT if I was someone who enjoyed cooking a lot (I don't) or someone who had the time to follow recipes (I don't), there is no way I would EVER get bored eating a ketogenic diet for life. The blandness argument is reaching at best and vastly incorrect at worst.

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                      • #26
                        Yeah, it's not bland food at all. Crackers and toast and rice are by definition bland. What do they tell you to eat when sick? Rice, bananas and what's the others? The BRAT diet or something like that?

                        I'm reading a book by the guy who went on an all meat diet in the 1920s in a metabolic ward study after having described living 5 years with eskimos and eating their food. Nobody believed he could eat that way and not get scurvy.

                        Way back at the turn of the 20th century they already knew (and were quickly starting to forget) that there were three types of foods: Hunter/herder food (meat and fat and milk), monkey food (tubers, roots, fruits and shoots) and agricultural foods (cereal grains.) They knew you could be healthy on monkey food or hunter/herder food but you couldn't be healthy on cereal grains. We retain some ability to eat foods that other apes do, but apes do not eat grains. Furthermore, only people eating hunter/herder food had 100% absence of dental caries. People eating a mixed diet had some dental caries. People eating only meat and fat had no scurvy or other deficiency diseases. And these wild animals they ate had plenty of fat. The fat animals are older and slower and easier to catch. They go for the fattiest parts and give the rest to their sled dogs.

                        The point of my saying this is that it is more healthy to eat lower carbohydrate not because it's low in carbohydrate exactly but because it's closer to the true human diet. You can also eat more monkey food and be nearly equally healthy. You can even be a lacto-ovo vegetarian and be nearly equally healthy. What you can't do is be healthy while eating cereal grains or being a vegan.

                        This guy on the all meat diet (and the other guy who did it with him) ate over 6 pounds of meat and fat each day, living in New York City. Holy crap!
                        Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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                        • #27
                          I beg to differ on the blandness of ketogenic diets. What I get is increased satiety from a calorie restricted diet, and don't stimulate the insulin rush that carbs trigger, leading me to consume more calories to acheive satiety.

                          Yes, no argument at all that less calories are necessary to lose weight. However, ketosis keeps me satisfied with less calories, and more energy, better sleep, better immune response, better mood control.

                          Will an apple be the end to ketosis? No, depending on how strict you are with carbs. For me, a whole apple would, in fact, blow my carbs for the day (I stay below 30). Plus, it would leaving me scavenging the kitchen for any snacks that I could munch on. However, 1/4 to 1/2 that apple, sliced up and eaten with cheese, or at the end of a meal? Just satisfying enough.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                            A third grade approach? It takes less than a third grade intelligence to understand CICO. It's just addition and subtraction. That's not opinion. The fundamental issue is people hate the term "calories" and refuse to accept it for many reasons, most of them being issues with owning the reality that they're responsible for their own health problems. It's not easy to accept that for some. But that doesn't matter. You can hate the term "air," but it's still what you breathe. Call it whatever you want.

                            Oh, don't mistake me as to trying to open a carb or CICO debate. I simply made the observation that your analysis of "why" keto works was merely ONE of several opinions on the subject. And yes, you do tend to state your opinions as fact. See the difference is I don't have to pretend to have all the answers. I know that there are actually far more questions to be answered. It's OK....seeing your reading list I understand. Particularly Lyle and colpo...they both say "think for yourself", but belittle anyone whose analysis leads to different conclusions. So the "think for yourself" schtick should come with the disclaimer "unless you disagree with me!"

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                            • #29
                              Another interesting thing in this book I'm reading is that most Europeans have only been agriculturalists for a few hundred years, not for 10,000 years.

                              None of this is really about calories. It's about eating a true human diet. You will restore your body to health eating the food your body is meant to eat.
                              Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
                                Another interesting thing in this book I'm reading is that most Europeans have only been agriculturalists for a few hundred years, not for 10,000 years.

                                None of this is really about calories. It's about eating a true human diet. You will restore your body to health eating the food your body is meant to eat.
                                Lewis has posted one of his entire books on the forum here somewhere. I started looking through it, but now that you mention it I'm gonna have to start reading it again. Ah here we go if anyone is interested http://owndoc.com/pdf/The-fat-of-the-land.pdf. AAHhahAH I just looked back and see you already linked it....Oh, well. Its worth linking twice
                                Last edited by Neckhammer; 10-22-2012, 08:15 AM.

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