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Can someone address the saturated fat issue again

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  • Can someone address the saturated fat issue again

    I say again because I'm assuming it has been addressed.


    http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/wp-co...d-Sat-Fats.mp3

    I'm refering to this clip, Cordain references an obscure paper that shows EXTENSIVE endothelial damage in a mummy of a frozen Inuit.

    Now heres a person who is well adapted to a high saturated fat diet, and is eating as clean of animals as you can get. I think that it's important that they are somewhat adapted to that diet, because I think it would be even more problematic for someone who is not. In the same way that you would not expect a Pima Indian to function optimally on a mostly fruit diet.

    I would also like to deflect any comments about alternative hypothesis(aside from diet) as to the coronary plaque, as the Kitivans have shown us that conventional risk factors for heart disease(smoking) do not necessarily contribute to it when the diet is in order. I am aware that they did consume some saturated fat in terms of coconut but it was not the dominant macronutrient.

  • #2
    Originally posted by straxville View Post
    I say again because I'm assuming it has been addressed.


    http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/wp-co...d-Sat-Fats.mp3

    I'm refering to this clip, Cordain references an obscure paper that shows EXTENSIVE endothelial damage in a mummy of a frozen Inuit.

    Now heres a person who is well adapted to a high saturated fat diet, and is eating as clean of animals as you can get. I think that it's important that they are somewhat adapted to that diet, because I think it would be even more problematic for someone who is not. In the same way that you would not expect a Pima Indian to function optimally on a mostly fruit diet.

    I would also like to deflect any comments about alternative hypothesis(aside from diet) as to the coronary plaque, as the Kitivans have shown us that conventional risk factors for heart disease(smoking) do not necessarily contribute to it when the diet is in order. I am aware that they did consume some saturated fat in terms of coconut but it was not the dominant macronutrient.
    Do they know how old he was when he died? If he had endeolithal damage, but still lived to a healthy, happy, ripe old age before he croaked, that's evidence enough for me that the protective benefits of the fat outweighed the damages.

    Just because there were some negatives (and there always is), it doesn't mean the positives won't outweigh them.
    "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

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    • #3
      Drumroll having coronary plaque causes a lot of problems from erectile dysfunction to headaches galore. Now, in order for it to rupture and cause an MI you need several events to take place that did not happen. And one of the bodies was 30 years old and was severely osteoporotic. Listen to the clip
      Last edited by straxville; 10-12-2012, 08:05 PM.

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      • #4
        Tough to say when his 3 studies that are so obscure nobody else can look into the methodology

        He is "on record saying ....risk factor of saturated fats in the paleo diet is low and not atherogenic" so thats his take away. Stearic acid he rates as fine... palmatic acid he's not sure about. There is not significant evidence one way or another.

        Goes on to say "even though they may of had plaque build up they may NEVER have suffered an MI......" seems like a very important point.

        "Plaque doesn't kill you, the rupture of the plaque does".....he doesn't believe this happened in the inuit because their diet was not pro-inflammatory. Elements in the western diet upregulate the enzymes that directly cause the rupture of the fibrous cap.

        Those are some of the important points in my book.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by straxville View Post
          Drumroll having coronary plaque causes a lot of problems from erectile dysfunction to headaches galore.
          Is this not just an extrapolation of your assumptions about plaque? I didn't hear anything in the discussion to this regard. Whose to say that without the inflammatory markers you may not experience such symptoms?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
            Is this not just an extrapolation of your assumptions about plaque? I didn't hear anything in the discussion to this regard. Whose to say that without the inflammatory markers you may not experience such symptoms?
            Exactly what I was just about to point out...
            "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

            Comment


            • #7
              Loren Cordain – Caution: Saturated Fats – Disaster with Grains | Me and My Diabetes

              I was just reading that the other day. I'm not going to offer up any counterpoints because I don't have any. Not sure if my link adds anything to the discussion. Oh well.

              Oh, I just posted the transcript. Well, there it is for people who prefer reading to listening.

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              • #8
                Doesn't jive with all the other data out there on saturated fats and I think Cordain has sort of painted himself into this corner of having to defend a slightly lower fat type of paleo. Or maybe he hasn't and this is just his reading of the data. Either way I've seen enough evidence outside of this single report on a couple obscure autopsies to be certain that I'm not concerned.

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                • #9
                  Observational, but still interesting in context of the discussion Dietary fats, carbohydrate, and progression o... [Am J Clin Nutr. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI

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                  • #10
                    Ron Krauss – Saturated Fat? Red Meat? It Depends . . . | Me and My Diabetes
                    Four years Primal with influences from Jaminet & Shanahan and a focus on being anti-inflammatory. Using Primal to treat CVD and prevent stents from blocking free of drugs.

                    Eat creatures nose-to-tail (animal, fowl, fish, crustacea, molluscs), a large variety of vegetables (raw, cooked and fermented, including safe starches), dairy (cheese & yoghurt), occasional fruit, cocoa, turmeric & red wine

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                      Is this not just an extrapolation of your assumptions about plaque? I didn't hear anything in the discussion to this regard. Whose to say that without the inflammatory markers you may not experience such symptoms?
                      Are you proposing that coronary artery calicification is an unavoidable symptom of aging? The mummy was 30 years old.

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                      • #12
                        The reasons all of the studies Ron Krauss is addressing there don't work is that they were all done since the modern age of doing studies. Meaning lord knows what kind of carbohydrates they were using. The mummy with plaque was eating a "prehistoric" diet.

                        It was also severely osteoporotic

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                          Doesn't jive with all the other data out there on saturated fats and I think Cordain has sort of painted himself into this corner of having to defend a slightly lower fat type of paleo. Or maybe he hasn't and this is just his reading of the data. Either way I've seen enough evidence outside of this single report on a couple obscure autopsies to be certain that I'm not concerned.
                          And what evidence is that? A coronary autopsy is a sophisticated method of determining vascular health. Outside of preforming coronary angiograms on people, and evaluating their progression(this is actually the test Dean Ornish and Caldwell Essylstein use) there are no good ways of measuring arterial plaque, to collect data on this or that. Even triglycerides aren't that sensitive or specific as to whats really going on. Calcium score is a very poor test, also.

                          I find it troublesome an Innuit who was eating as pristine of meat as you can possibly find, as well as having been genetically adapted to eating that food still suffered from arterial calcification.

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                          • #14
                            So, from the other studies being posted it seems standard primal wisdom, cut the grains and eat real food.
                            Eating primal is not a diet, it is a way of life.
                            PS
                            Don't forget to play!

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by straxville View Post
                              And what evidence is that? A coronary autopsy is a sophisticated method of determining vascular health. Outside of preforming coronary angiograms on people, and evaluating their progression(this is actually the test Dean Ornish and Caldwell Essylstein use) there are no good ways of measuring arterial plaque, to collect data on this or that. Even triglycerides aren't that sensitive or specific as to whats really going on. Calcium score is a very poor test, also.

                              I find it troublesome an Innuit who was eating as pristine of meat as you can possibly find, as well as having been genetically adapted to eating that food still suffered from arterial calcification.

                              The inuit were on an extreme diet. Whether or not it causes atherosclerosis is debatable. Follow a well rounded diet and you won't have to really worry whether it applies to you or not.
                              The inuit also used seal oil lamps which could have resulted in them breathing in a lot of toxic smoke that can cause diseases like emphysema and atherosclerosis.

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