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Can someone address the saturated fat issue again

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  • #16
    Originally posted by straxville View Post
    I find it troublesome an Innuit who was eating as pristine of meat as you can possibly find, as well as having been genetically adapted to eating that food still suffered from arterial calcification.
    You are blaming the diet without knowing anything else about this individual. Perhaps he had been marginalized from his community and underwent a lot of stress or starvation. Perhaps he had infections or parasites. All we have is one mummy and a whole lot of assumptions about X causing Y.
    Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by straxville View Post
      Are you proposing that coronary artery calicification is an unavoidable symptom of aging? The mummy was 30 years old.
      Listen, if you wanna go "all in" with this one study (which we don't even have access to!)...then have at it. This IS N=2 science by definition. You autopsied ONE indivudual HUNDREDS of years after death and decay (or freezing...). You have absolutely NO data as to that persons habits prior to death, and you wish to base your entire case on this? Seems wreckless, but it's your health. Do as you see fit. Not to say it doesn't raise questions, but take the information gleaned in context with current studies.
      Last edited by Neckhammer; 10-13-2012, 09:19 AM. Reason: made it N=2 ;)

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      • #18
        Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
        You are blaming the diet without knowing anything else about this individual. Perhaps he had been marginalized from his community and underwent a lot of stress or starvation. Perhaps he had infections or parasites. All we have is one mummy and a whole lot of assumptions about X causing Y.
        There were 2 Innuit mummys found, not one. both were autopsied. Both suffered from diseases that modern medicine deems to be the result of a high animal food diet-- Osteoporosis and heart disease.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by straxville View Post
          There were 2 Innuit mummys found, not one. both were autopsied. Both suffered from diseases that modern medicine deems to be the result of a high animal food diet-- Osteoporosis and heart disease.
          Do they? Is modern medicine based on science then cause I actually have not seen this data.

          This does not seem to say so (osteoporosis) http://www.jacn.org/content/24/suppl_6/526S.short

          "In agreement with both experimental and clinical intervention studies, large prospective epidemiologic observations indicate that relatively high protein intakes, including those from animal sources are associated with increased bone mineral mass and reduced incidence of osteoporotic fractures."

          Nor does this http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20442986

          "Our results are consistent with reduced risk of hip fracture with higher dietary protein intake. Larger prospective studies are needed to confirm and extend this finding in elderly men and women."

          Then you got this (since you seem to like the veggie approach) from Physiol. Res. 58 (Suppl. 1): S7-S11, 2009

          "There is however no known connection between high fat intake and increased risk of
          osteoporosis."

          "No beneficial effect of vegetarian diet on bone density has ever been proven. That is probably because of
          relatively high content of SH-amino acids in cereals, rice, oats, nuts and seeds. Other factors are the content of fibre, phytates and oxalates in vegetarian diet, which promotes resorption of calcium and its secretion in urine."

          I'm not gonna bother responding to the heart disease claim. I feel that horse has been sufficiently beaten.
          So maybe you should look at other factors for these Inuit. Is it possible of the TWO people that were studied they were not getting sufficient vitamin D, calcium, weight bearing activity, too much seal oil smoke whatever? Perhaps they were malnurished or physically ailed outliers. There are too many variables to hang your hat on just this. Sorry.
          Last edited by Neckhammer; 10-13-2012, 09:44 AM.

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          • #20
            The Osteoporosis issue could be attributed to a number of factors, the hypothesis that high-protein diets favor the development of this disease is not as strongly correlated as high palmitic acid is to heart disease

            If you would address the other points about saturated fat down-regulating the LDL receptor that would also help, because there is a hypothesis that saturated fat causes heart disease and this is evidence to support the hypothesis.

            There are cardiologists who have reversed end-stage coronary artery disease(weeks to live) as evidenced using angiography, using very low-fat diets, does that support the hypothesis?



            The low-carb whole food diet is a hypothesis that requires two leaps of faith, one that our ancestors in fact ate a similar macronutrient ratio, and the second is that this was healthy and not just the result of scarcity. You act as if it has already been proven to work in double-blind controlled experiments. It is still very much in the hypothetical stage, and when you have access to information about people who lived this VERSION of a paleo lifestyle then you need to review this data. If you're going to ignore it then you're not being very sound in reasoning.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by straxville View Post
              The Osteoporosis issue could be attributed to a number of factors, the hypothesis that high-protein diets favor the development of this disease is not as strongly correlated as high palmitic acid is to heart disease

              If you would address the other points about saturated fat down-regulating the LDL receptor that would also help, because there is a hypothesis that saturated fat causes heart disease and this is evidence to support the hypothesis.

              There are cardiologists who have reversed end-stage coronary artery disease(weeks to live) as evidenced using angiography, using very low-fat diets, does that support the hypothesis?


              The low-carb whole food diet is a hypothesis that requires two leaps of faith, one that our ancestors in fact ate a similar macronutrient ratio, and the second is that this was healthy and not just the result of scarcity. You act as if it has already been proven to work in double-blind controlled experiments. It is still very much in the hypothetical stage, and when you have access to information about people who lived this VERSION of a paleo lifestyle then you need to review this data. If you're going to ignore it then you're not being very sound in reasoning.

              I'll need the studies you have to back up your hypothesis assertions. You haven't actually linked any of these experiments...in fact you haven't even linked the ones from your opening question, so ALL your assertions up to now are just that.

              As to this "The low-carb whole food diet is a hypothesis that requires two leaps of faith, one that our ancestors in fact ate a similar macronutrient ratio, and the second is that this was healthy and not just the result of scarcity"....actually that doesn't take any leap of faith at all. Cordain's work itself validates this:

              Data extrapolated from "Ethnographic Atlas by Dr. George P. Murdock" shows that "Many groups were almost totally carnivorous, with 46 getting over 85% of their calories from hunted foods. However, not a single group out of 229 was vegetarian or vegan. No group got less than 15% of their calories from hunted foods, and only 2 of 229 groups ate 76-85% of their calories from gathered foods (don't forget, "gathered foods" also includes small animals). On average, the hunter-gatherer groups analyzed got about 70% of their calories from hunted foods. This makes the case that meat-heavy omnivory is our preferred ecological niche. However, it also shows that we can thrive on a plant-rich diet containing modest amounts of quality animal foods.

              The paper also discusses the nature of the plant foods hunter-gatherers ate. Although they ate a wide variety of plants occasionally, more typically they relied on a small number of staple foods with a high energy density. There's a table in the paper that lists the most commonly eaten plant foods. "Vegetables" are notably underrepresented. The most commonly eaten plant foods are fruit, underground storage organs (tubers, roots, corms, bulbs), nuts and other seeds. Leaves and other low-calorie plant parts were used much less frequently." Stephan Guyenet Whole Health Source: Composition of the Hunter-Gatherer Diet

              So there is ample evidence that MOST "wild" humans thrive on a meat centric diet, but CAN thrive on a variety of foods....just there is NONE that was vegetarian or vegan.
              Last edited by Neckhammer; 10-13-2012, 01:55 PM.

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              • #22
                Meh, this is getting boring. You make a bunch of claims with no evidence except a short clip of Cordain. Then you don't respond to any of the data provided to you. I'm done here. Keep trolling maybe someone else is interested.

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                • #23
                  If osteoporosis is a result of animal foods then why does conventional wisdom recommend cheese and milk? Those are animal foods.
                  Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by straxville View Post
                    ...EXTENSIVE endothelial damage in a mummy of a frozen Inuit.
                    Septic shock (ie, heavy infection) can cause that as well. Given the standard of medical a "frozen mummy" could have been expected to have access to, I think it's a bit of a leap to the conclusion that the corpse's condition was caused by diet.

                    Not suggesting to dismiss it out of hand, either, of course.
                    Last edited by DeeDub; 10-13-2012, 05:51 PM.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                      I'll need the studies you have to back up your hypothesis assertions. You haven't actually linked any of these experiments...in fact you haven't even linked the ones from your opening question, so ALL your assertions up to now are just that.

                      As to this "The low-carb whole food diet is a hypothesis that requires two leaps of faith, one that our ancestors in fact ate a similar macronutrient ratio, and the second is that this was healthy and not just the result of scarcity"....actually that doesn't take any leap of faith at all. Cordain's work itself validates this:

                      Data extrapolated from "Ethnographic Atlas by Dr. George P. Murdock" shows that "Many groups were almost totally carnivorous, with 46 getting over 85% of their calories from hunted foods. However, not a single group out of 229 was vegetarian or vegan. No group got less than 15% of their calories from hunted foods, and only 2 of 229 groups ate 76-85% of their calories from gathered foods (don't forget, "gathered foods" also includes small animals). On average, the hunter-gatherer groups analyzed got about 70% of their calories from hunted foods. This makes the case that meat-heavy omnivory is our preferred ecological niche. However, it also shows that we can thrive on a plant-rich diet containing modest amounts of quality animal foods.

                      The paper also discusses the nature of the plant foods hunter-gatherers ate. Although they ate a wide variety of plants occasionally, more typically they relied on a small number of staple foods with a high energy density. There's a table in the paper that lists the most commonly eaten plant foods. "Vegetables" are notably underrepresented. The most commonly eaten plant foods are fruit, underground storage organs (tubers, roots, corms, bulbs), nuts and other seeds. Leaves and other low-calorie plant parts were used much less frequently." Stephan Guyenet Whole Health Source: Composition of the Hunter-Gatherer Diet

                      So there is ample evidence that MOST "wild" humans thrive on a meat centric diet, but CAN thrive on a variety of foods....just there is NONE that was vegetarian or vegan.


                      Here we go again. Not one time was the word vegetarian brought up in this entire thread. Here is the stereotypical argument of meat eater vs vegetarian. I am talking about a diet high in a macronutrient content of saturated fat. Re-read the thread, the word vegetarian was not brought up. I am talking about Palmitic acid, the stuff found in not only animal fat. Listen to the audio on the first page, they were obscure papers that Cordain referenced but surly they weren't outright lies?

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by straxville View Post
                        Here we go again. Not one time was the word vegetarian brought up in this entire thread. Here is the stereotypical argument of meat eater vs vegetarian. I am talking about a diet high in a macronutrient content of saturated fat. Re-read the thread, the word vegetarian was not brought up. I am talking about Palmitic acid, the stuff found in not only animal fat. Listen to the audio on the first page, they were obscure papers that Cordain referenced but surly they weren't outright lies?
                        The only way you can remove meat from this equation is if you literally eat ONLY lean, boneless, skinless chicken breast for meat and keep to completely non-fat dairy. Even fish and shellfish and bugs contain fair amounts of saturated fats if you propose they make up a good chunk of bulk in your diet.

                        Otherwise, pretty much all animal products contain significant (at least from a dietary perspective) amounts of saturated fats and therefore, palamitic acid. And even Cordain wouldn't approve of the non-fat dairy, which leaves you with the chicken breast to make up the entire animal content of your diet.

                        Seems like we've basically kept meat an integral part in this equation unless you're dry-cooking chicken breasts several times a day.
                        Last edited by Drumroll; 10-14-2012, 06:23 PM.
                        "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

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                        • #27
                          http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/wp-co...ized-Inuit.pdf

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                          • #28
                            ATHEROSCLEROSIS IN THE MASAI

                            Masai have the same problem

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                            • #29
                              "the finding of atherosclerosis in both groups suggests that diet alone may not be a critical factor."
                              Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

                              Griff's cholesterol primer
                              5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
                              Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
                              TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
                              bloodorchid is always right

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by straxville View Post
                                ATHEROSCLEROSIS IN THE MASAI

                                Masai have the same problem
                                Good article...confirms that if you eat clean food and keep active the body knows how to respond to prevent problems....thanks for that.
                                Eating primal is not a diet, it is a way of life.
                                PS
                                Don't forget to play!

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