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Well, I botched that one...

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  • Well, I botched that one...

    I was having a debate on another website with someone who just told me she was following Weight Watchers to lose a lot of weight and was complaining that it wasn't working.

    Ah, so enter my comment about the "primal" lifestyle. She was intrigued at first. Was getting the high fat, low carb deal, understanding the connection of insulin to fat storage, following me on my reason about lots of slow movement and lifting heavily on ocassion, she was digging the "whole and real foods" concept, everything was going well. She even wondered about cutting grains and why it was such a useful thing. I was making good ground. But she wanted hard evidence. So I lead her to Mark's recent blog about why cutting grains is not only, not bad, but probably even a good thing for us.

    Then came the response, "This is bullshit, I'm blocking you."

    So, I almost had a new primal convert. ALMOST!

    How could I have approached this maybe in a less preachy manner that could have ended in her making the positive switch? Or am I crazy for even thinking that was possible, and that she was going to react that way right from the start. I mean... She was interested in everything I was saying at first but then, bam! Dramatic 180 switch. What did I do wrong?

    Is there a way to explain the nutritional reasons for cutting grains from the diet without eliciting a visceral, gut-reaction that essentially shuts out any evidence to the contrary of the current CW wisdom on them?
    "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

  • #2
    Some people aren't capable of thinking outside the box. Such an intense response is usually fear based. I mean I reacted pretty strongly when I learned of the damage I had been doing to my body for years with "healthy grains". My reaction was to educate myself and my resulting decision was to change. Her reaction is based on her insecurities and narrow mindedness, not your approach. If people are closed off to real changes there is no good way to suggest it to them.

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    • #3
      That seems to be the turn-off point for most of the folks I've discussed it with, they can't imagine life without "healthy, wholesome grains". You tried, it's her loss if she wants to snap her mind shut.

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      • #4
        Doesn't sound like you were preaching....if she can't read and research the truth there is no hope.
        Eating primal is not a diet, it is a way of life.
        PS
        Don't forget to play!

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        • #5
          Originally posted by LJH View Post
          That seems to be the turn-off point for most of the folks I've discussed it with, they can't imagine life without "healthy, wholesome grains". You tried, it's her loss if she wants to snap her mind shut.
          That's what I am thinking, although I want to think that there might have been a glimmer of hope in there!
          "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Jena View Post
            Some people aren't capable of thinking outside the box. Such an intense response is usually fear based. I mean I reacted pretty strongly when I learned of the damage I had been doing to my body for years with "healthy grains". My reaction was to educate myself and my resulting decision was to change. Her reaction is based on her insecurities and narrow mindedness, not your approach. If people are closed off to real changes there is no good way to suggest it to them.
            It's funny how she was TOTALLY following the low carb thing, even agreeing with it, but then the grains. The grains!

            How are you going to go low carb as you say you think is good, if you're still wolfing down the grains?
            "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Drumroll View Post
              It's funny how she was TOTALLY following the low carb thing, even agreeing with it, but then the grains. The grains!

              How are you going to go low carb as you say you think is good, if you're still wolfing down the grains?
              I think people find it hard to have things that they have learned to be the truth since childhood challenged. Myself included! Even if it makes sense it's still hard to swallow. I have not always been so open minded, not just about primal, but many things. What can I say... I'm a late bloomer. But until people decide to be open to something you can talk till ya pass out, but they won't even process it.

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              • #8
                To be fair, there are a lot of people out there spewing bullshit, and when you're steeped in CW, it's easy to block out what certain people say. But no worries, she may hear this again from someone else at some point, and maybe next time she'll think it's not such bullshit. And maybe someday she'll be open to it, and you'll be the person who planted that seed.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I tend to start them out with just little deviations from CW. I talk about einkorn wheat vs dwarf or I suggest whole foods instead of processed by mentioning the sodium content. Start them out with just baby steps and lead them toward primal one crumb at a time...if that makes sense. I had a co-worker mention to me that her weight loss efforts were not fruitful...she ate lots frozen dinners. I suggested she stop eating frozen dinners b/c the sodium was probably causing her to retain water (sodium is so demonized by CW that it was an easy sell) and get her "healthy grains" from rice and quinoa for a week and see how she felt. Guess what...she lost weight. Now she is more open to the idea that grains in general are bad for you and that whole foods are the way to go...but if I had hit her with everything all at once, I'd have lost her.

                  So I guess my advice is start off slow with one small thing. And if they dont bite...I would just quit trying to steer them the right way...they arent ready.
                  It's just another day in paradise
                  As you stumble to your bed
                  You'd give anything to silence
                  Those voices ringing in your head
                  You thought you could find happiness
                  Just over that green hill
                  You thought you would be satisfied
                  But you never will-
                  Learn to be still
                  -The Eagles

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by palebluedots View Post
                    To be fair, there are a lot of people out there spewing bullshit, and when you're steeped in CW, it's easy to block out what certain people say. But no worries, she may hear this again from someone else at some point, and maybe next time she'll think it's not such bullshit. And maybe someday she'll be open to it, and you'll be the person who planted that seed.
                    What an excellent way to look at it! The person who planted the seed... As someone who never warms up to any thing, person, or idea that quickly I love this

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      it's pretty tough to change people's minds, especially when you're up against years of believing things a certain way. even if you show them the science, you still have to deal with some degree of confirmation bias.

                      i give people a little intro, point them in what direction they can go to learn on their own, and hope they convert. one thing i find helpful, is not to bring up that grains are bad, but that gluten/lectins/etc. are bad and, aside from causing leaky gut/inflammation/etc., they stop your body from absorbing the nutrients you would be getting from those whole foods. it's an odd blend of big picture and small details, but for some reason it's an easier pill to swallow.
                      http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread60178.html

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by primalrob View Post
                        it's pretty tough to change people's minds, especially when you're up against years of believing things a certain way. even if you show them the science, you still have to deal with some degree of confirmation bias.

                        i give people a little intro, point them in what direction they can go to learn on their own, and hope they convert. one thing i find helpful, is not to bring up that grains are bad, but that gluten/lectins/etc. are bad and, aside from causing leaky gut/inflammation/etc., they stop your body from absorbing the nutrients you would be getting from those whole foods. it's an odd blend of big picture and small details, but for some reason it's an easier pill to swallow.
                        Hmmm... And then you drop the bomb that these bad things come from their precious grains.
                        "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Grains are also an addiction IMO, people are not only afraid of giving them up, but they honestly don't want to. They will come up with any excuse possible to justify the need to eat them. Grains are cheap, quick, easy and convenient, all things people these days need and want. There is nothing more you could have done. When people's health begins to fail hopefully they will do the research and figure these things out for themselves. Trust me, I was one one of those people :-) The shit needed to hit the fan for me before I started to listen too......

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                          • #14
                            Start by pointing out that 99% of bread sold in the US, even (especially) the "healthy whole-grains" breads, have boatloads of sugar in them.

                            I find this is the easiest approach for my random European in-laws. Their mind just boggles at the idea of sugar in bread.

                            I had read about WAPF a few years ago, so the idea that grains are iffy wasn't new when I discovered PB. But yeah, this is going to be the strangest part of this. I mean, it's the whole bottom of the food pyramid! Haven't people been eating grains for forever!!! Having a good wapf-bread recipe hanging around is a good thing to show then, three days of soaking/sprouting/grinding/fermenting for something of dubious nutritional value? It's a PITA best reserved for those massive amounts of free time and patience.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Periwinkle View Post
                              I tend to start them out with just little deviations from CW. I talk about einkorn wheat vs dwarf or I suggest whole foods instead of processed by mentioning the sodium content. Start them out with just baby steps and lead them toward primal one crumb at a time...if that makes sense. I had a co-worker mention to me that her weight loss efforts were not fruitful...she ate lots frozen dinners. I suggested she stop eating frozen dinners b/c the sodium was probably causing her to retain water (sodium is so demonized by CW that it was an easy sell) and get her "healthy grains" from rice and quinoa for a week and see how she felt. Guess what...she lost weight. Now she is more open to the idea that grains in general are bad for you and that whole foods are the way to go...but if I had hit her with everything all at once, I'd have lost her.

                              So I guess my advice is start off slow with one small thing. And if they dont bite...I would just quit trying to steer them the right way...they arent ready.
                              I approach it in a similar way, *especially* with people who are having trouble losing weight. Except I don't really say much about grains being bad for you, only that they are a lot of calories for not much nutrition (as compared to fruits and vegetables) and that they are so easy to over eat. I don't really distinguish between wheat and non-gluten grains either, because as weightloss derailers, they're not that different. For someone struggling to stick to a weight loss program, getting off the grain merry-go-round is a huge advantage. It's also the gateway to a primal life style, but I never frame it that way. I found my own way there and they can too. I do offer primal and paleo websites for recipes that look like "normal" meals, but don't include grain. If they're ready, they'll look around there and think about the rest of the lifestyle without feeling pressured.

                              I also never suggest the cold turkey approach. I steadily cut back on grains, starting with where it seemed easiest and still haven't completely given up pizza, but before too long I could feel the evidence in my own body that digesting grain, and especially wheat, made me uncomfortable. It was trial and error on finding how many other foods made it easier to stick to a calorie budget that pushed me further and further from grains. People can't imagine not caring if they never have another cookie or cracker or piece of bread and if you let them think cold turkey is the only way, odds are they won't last until they get to that place. I guess I don't feel obligated to sell primal. I'm satisfied to get them to step off the CW path long enough to look around and see there are other paths that will lead them to really great places.
                              50yo, 5'3"
                              SW-195
                              CW-125, part calorie counting, part transition to primal
                              GW- Goals are no longer weight-related

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