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  • #31
    Originally posted by zoebird View Post
    How is it that they have no choice?

    My doctor was an allopathic doctor who prescribed homeopathy and herbalism as his first port of call, and also would offer diet/nutritional protocols in lieu of medication.

    I didn't notice that he was ever under any obligation from anyone to give a "party line."
    I think it can vary state to state, to be honest. There are different regulations.

    Still I think it's absolutely ridiculous that ANY doctor would recommend drugs before recommending lifestyle change. I mean, there are so many conditions that can be reversed by making lifestyle changes, but it seems the standard is to give someone a prescription for something. Drives me nuts!

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by RitaRose View Post
      Find all of the posts that you want to quote, then click on the button to the right of the "Reply With Quote" button for each one. When you get to the last one, click on that far right button one last time, and then click on "Reply With Quote".
      Rita Rose - thank you, am trying it now !! hopefully it will work

      Originally posted by zoebird View Post

      When we moved to NZ, it was *tragic* how bad the pizza is here. It's TERRIBLE. it's worse than the mexican food, and that's not great. WHAT IS UP WITH KIWIS AND SWEET? yuck.

      .
      Zoebird I absolutely hate pizza, with a passion. I wonder if its because NZ has lousey pizza makers ???? except your weelington one ?????

      Yehaaa it worked !!!!!
      Last edited by NZ primal Gwamma; 10-05-2012, 06:44 PM. Reason: add on
      "never let the truth get in the way of a good story "

      ...small steps....

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by zoebird View Post
        no, because we like to have pizza too.

        it's likely that at the bowling alley, I'll be able to have a salad w/meat because that's easy enough (it's a fairly diverse menu), and then the second night with pizza is the only good pizza in NZ, so we'll go ahead and eat it.

        I actually miss pizza. Before I was primal, I ate pizza about once a quarter -- usually wood burning oven baked stuff. Tasty! When we moved to NZ, it was *tragic* how bad the pizza is here. It's TERRIBLE. it's worse than the mexican food, and that's not great. WHAT IS UP WITH KIWIS AND SWEET? yuck.

        Anyway, this one place is owned by italians who moved here from napoli, so it tastes really good and authentic. Seeing as I haven't had it in over 1.5 years (we had it to celebrate my friend's return to the US -- so his going away party, his choice), I see no harm in having it.
        I wasn't referring to any inherent harm in eating pizza once in a while. I was referring to your brother's insistence on having pizza TWICE, when to me, once would seem like plenty. It's kind of ironic that BOTH of the nights you will be spending with him, he has insisted on eating pizza. My question then, is this:

        Does he lack the ability to think of, suggest other menu options? Or is there some sort of all-pizza diet he is on that is the latest fad?

        The harm isn't my concern here, more just wondering about your brother's lack of creativity.
        "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

        Comment


        • #34
          15-20 years ago the SATs got dumbed down. The public schools are a shambles. This means the quality of student available to colleges decreased. In addition, colleges, in the face of decreased funding and donations, have to focus more on revenue than quality education. This leads to a lesser quality graduate student, which leads to a lesser quality graduate.

          I am not saying that all doctors, lawyers, professionals under 50 are substandard - not at all. I would never be so presumptuous. I am saying that the average doctor/professional comes from weaker stock.

          Old joke: You know what they call the person who graduates last in his medical class? Doctor.

          Buyer beware.
          "Right is right, even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong, even if everyone is doing it." - St. Augustine

          B*tch-lite

          Who says back fat is a bad thing? Maybe on a hairy guy at the beach, but not on a crab.

          Comment


          • #35
            I work at a medical centre and I have found that if the docs aren't actively interested in nutrition, then they'll just spout CW and what they've been taught. I suppose it is the way with many things, lack of interest...

            They are slowly cottoning on though. Every now and then I hear things in the lunch room that give me hope.

            I am having 3 months off work soon and when I come back I imagine I'll be a "socially acceptable" size and maybe then they'll take seriously what I say about how I eat. I have already lost lots of weight but going from stage 3 obese to like stage 1 obese isn't that impressive really (apparently).

            There's one man who comes in regularly who is well over 400lb. Can't remember his actual weight but I did see it once.
            He can still walk but you should hear his lungs working. The reason he keeps coming in is because he has recurrent cellulitis and ulcers on his legs related to his morbid obesity, so he comes in for an IV of antibiotics and dressing changes every day. He has been battling those infections for over a year. I just get so so sad when I see him. And it's not pity. I just don't know what it is but frustration. That he thinks he's lacking willpower but he just doesn't know that he's following the wrong advice and fighting a losing battle by attempting to be CW healthy and failing over and over again. I saw recently that he is on the waiting list for bariatric surgery. It just kills me that he might not even live past 50 at the rate he's going and all it would take is an alternative perspective on things and some real support rather than a 5 minute lecture about eating more grains and sending him off with a brochure and a doggy bag full of drugs.
            Current weight lost: 82.9lb (37.6kg)

            Current PRs:
            Bench: 45kg/99lb
            Squat: 100kg/220lb
            Deadlift: 120kg/265lb

            My blog
            My journal

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Drumroll View Post
              I wasn't referring to any inherent harm in eating pizza once in a while. I was referring to your brother's insistence on having pizza TWICE, when to me, once would seem like plenty. It's kind of ironic that BOTH of the nights you will be spending with him, he has insisted on eating pizza. My question then, is this:

              Does he lack the ability to think of, suggest other menu options? Or is there some sort of all-pizza diet he is on that is the latest fad?

              The harm isn't my concern here, more just wondering about your brother's lack of creativity.
              We probably got several lines crossed.

              I don't have a brother, though I do have a brother in law, and he won't share his family's pizza dough recipe because it's a "family secret." I live in NZ for goodness sakes! Who am I going to tell? LOL

              Anyway, he isn't visiting.

              I was speaking of my *son*. He's 4.

              His grandparents are visiting at christmas (the weirdos who bake with margarine). He has certain designs on the activities thta he wants to do with them, such as go to the park, go to the botanical gardens and feed the ducks, and go bowling.

              When we go bowling -- which is rare -- we usually buy pizza. Nearly every "good bye" party that we've had happen there, and we get pizza because it's easy sharing food. So my son connects pizza and that place.

              It's not that great, the pizza, but it's better than most of the pizza in NZ.

              My husband then mentioned that we could do pizza/bowling on one day of the holiday (probably in their first week here), and then in the third week, we'll be able to do pizza night at the 'good' pizza place. I thought that would probably be a good idea, and that if we could shake DS off the idea of pizza at the bowling alley, we could share with DH's parents the better pizza.

              Nevertheless, we'll probably just end up having pizza twice.

              Now, everyone else in our family is not paleo, though my parents are doing south beach level 1 right now, with one "cheat meal" per month right now. My ILs are SAD.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Iron Fireling View Post
                I think it can vary state to state, to be honest. There are different regulations.

                Still I think it's absolutely ridiculous that ANY doctor would recommend drugs before recommending lifestyle change. I mean, there are so many conditions that can be reversed by making lifestyle changes, but it seems the standard is to give someone a prescription for something. Drives me nuts!
                Just looking around in general, there aren't any laws that assert that a doctor HAS TO prescribe statins for people who have cholesterol issues (or any drugs for that matter). I haven't seen any regulations or cursory laws about it either (ie, medical boards of a couple of states via google searches).

                There are only two avenues that I can think of that would have some power over a doctor in this instance: A. the insurance companies in whose networks the doctor is in (perhaps they have policies that keep the doctor in their networks?); B. any unspoken agreements with pharma. companies in terms of payment for prescriptions (I think this is actually illegal or some such).

                It's likely the insurance issue. Our doctor was out of our network of insurance, and was only able to accept one kind of insurance and as in no other networks. So, that's a possibility.

                I mean, when the insurance company sent nurses to the health fair at the office that we went to to get money back for living healthy, they wrote my husband down as "obese" because of his BMI, even though he was obviosuly less than 10% body fat and very muscular. They also lectured us about eating too much meat or (in my case as I was vegetarian), not eating enough meat.

                It was stupid, but I suspect that they were hamstrung with scripts that came down through the company.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Drmike View Post
                  My wife was recently diagnosed with high cholesterol and pre- diabetes. Today her Dr gave her a pamphlet on food guidelines. Here are some of the foods to avoid; bacon, butter, coconut and coconut oil, avocados, nuts, fatty meats , egg yolks, whole milk. Here are the list of acceptable foods. Egg substitute (because I'm sure Grok found little cartons of egg beaters in the wild), soft margarine, vegetable oil, high fiber grains like oats and whole wheat and fat free milk. Thus proving once and for all that my Dr is an absolute moron. I'll bet she would recommend a carton of cigarettes to a patient with lung cancer. When is the medical community going to get with the program
                  If you want to get ill, eat industrial foods -- that's what the best medical research is indicating now:

                  Gut microbiota, immune development and function. [Pharmacol Res. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI

                  How long it will take primary-care doctors to catch up with medical research I don't know. Decades possibly.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Iron Fireling View Post
                    I think it can vary state to state, to be honest. There are different regulations.

                    Still I think it's absolutely ridiculous that ANY doctor would recommend drugs before recommending lifestyle change. I mean, there are so many conditions that can be reversed by making lifestyle changes, but it seems the standard is to give someone a prescription for something. Drives me nuts!
                    Medical doctors must follow guidelines. When a patient reaches a certain threshold of cholesterol, then they must be prescribed statins. Same with other lab testing.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      I do think the insurance companies have a say in it. I can't see them wanting to cover a doctor who tells his patient "odd" things like eating animal fat and ditching whole grains. It's not that I think they buy into the whole CW thing, it's that the patients' families would have a much easier time winning a lawsuit should the patient die, and medical records show the doc told him to eat butter and bacon.

                      But if the patient continues to be unhealthy, there are still drugs they can offer that CW says should work, and if the patient dies after THAT course of treatment, then the insurance company can show the doctor did everything standard treatment practices say should be done. It just couldn't be helped (and the patient was probably cheating on the diet anyway...)

                      As always, it most likely comes down to money, not health.
                      Durp.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        It would make senes that the insurance companies (both those who provide health insurance and those who provide malpractice insurance) would have a hand in it.

                        I also realized that hospital/office policies will have a roll, as will professional organizations. I remember one OB leaving PA because the hospital insisted that she needed to increase the number of c-sections that she provided or she would loose her privileges (she went ot the news about it, which is how we heard about it), and apparently there were insurance companies pushign the same in PA, so she moved to Maryland where she could practice "more freely."

                        Her c-section rate was below 3% for first timers, and she allowed for vaginal birth after c-section (VBAC) which the hospital where she worked in PA does not currently allow. She tends to have fewer high risk patients, largely because she recommends them to specialist OBs if they do go high risk. Basically, she knows what she's good at. *shrug* Still, it's sad that she had to move in order to practice medicine according to her education and conscience.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          @ Drmike - what was your wife eating before? I presume it wasn't paleo?
                          Evolutionary. Ideology that fits biology

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by john_e_turner_ii View Post
                            Medical doctors must follow guidelines. When a patient reaches a certain threshold of cholesterol, then they must be prescribed statins. Same with other lab testing.
                            Not quite. There are algorithms and there are guidelines, but they actually all explicitly state that "these are only guidelines and the final decision must be made on an individual basis".

                            What most practitioners do is duck their heads and follow the crowd though for fear of being the nail that sticks up. In reality evidence based medicine is based on equal parts of three things....the current reading of scientific literature, clinical experience, AND patient preference in regards to treatment. If the doctors where more forthcoming in the actual side effects of a medicated life vs. making real changes to improve health and they document that the patient had chosen lifestyle change then they would have in all legal ways protected themselves and best served their patients. But, that takes more time and effort than writing a script...getting their bonus...and moving on to the next paycheck, errr I mean patient. So instead they check the box stating they discussed lifestyle with you and prescribe regardless.

                            It's a sad state of affairs, but I think it has made more people take their health into their own hands which is evident by online sites like directlabs.com and other ways to monitor your own health. Skip the middle men IMO. Use em for emergency care when needed, but don't delude yourself into thinking you have health insurance or that your doctors practice health care....its a sick care model.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Iron Fireling View Post
                              Ugh... unfortunately doctors aren't given many lessons in nutrition!

                              I know one sad case of a kid who's just turned 13 and is overweight. He has some sort of liver disease, and his doctors have prescribed him a FAT FREE diet (like... REALLY fat free...he must only get a miniscule amount of fat) and yet, the kid keeps gaining weight (he's also growing very fast and is very tall for his age). The doctors basically accuse his mum of letting him cheat because he's NOT LOSING WEIGHT. They want him to have weight loss surgery . ARGH if only I could explain primal to them... I just don't think they'd be receptive, as it's the opposite of what they've learned.

                              Have the doctors checked this kid to see if his growth hormone levels are appropriate? Have they checked him for Marfan's Syndrom? Poor kid - I hope that the parents get some second and third opinions before they resort to surgery. Please, counsel them to check other things as I listed above, and a more natural diet.

                              The problem with most doctors I fear is that they have little time for study after they get their jobs. So they are stuck in the things that they learned in medical school which may have been decades ago.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by JoanieL View Post
                                15-20 years ago the SATs got dumbed down. The public schools are a shambles. This means the quality of student available to colleges decreased. In addition, colleges, in the face of decreased funding and donations, have to focus more on revenue than quality education. This leads to a lesser quality graduate student, which leads to a lesser quality graduate.

                                I am not saying that all doctors, lawyers, professionals under 50 are substandard - not at all. I would never be so presumptuous. I am saying that the average doctor/professional comes from weaker stock.

                                Old joke: You know what they call the person who graduates last in his medical class? Doctor.

                                Buyer beware.
                                You're quite wrong, to put it mildly. I can only speak from the medical side of things, but the baby boomer docs would never have made it into medical school if they were to go through the selection process we have today, and many have even acknowledged that publicly. I sit on a medical school admissions committee and we reject students in the top 10% of their undergrad classes on a routine basis.

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