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Most informative, least biased article on pros & cons of Soy I've ever read

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  • #91
    Originally posted by Betorq View Post
    Wow, touche' re: JamesS being the worst kind of troll! Maybe the "S" on the end of his name stands for "Soybean"
    So anyone posting evidence to back their claims is now a troll? Apparently you understand the definition of troll. Well that sure says a lot about this site and the people who keep trying to control what can and cannot be said.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by JamesS View Post
      Why do you think I mentioned in an earlier post about people who have no clue what they are talking about playing games. You're not near as smart as you want to believe.
      Up early in the morning for more comedy gold! It's 5 a.m. my time and I see you haven't failed to dissapoint. Let me get this straight.... Maybe you catch on that I'm poking you with a stick. Your tactical response is to accuse me of ignorance of the topic, and therefore attribute my behavior to that ignorance. "can't beat you, so I beat you up..." Because you have said it.... ipso facto.... therefore it is and I am officially in a "debate" with you. Man, what could I possibly say to that? <FACE PALM>
      Went Primal: 20 DEC 2011
      Starting: 6'1" 220 lbs
      Starting Energy: "bleh...."
      Current: 183 lbs @ 8.33% BF (Jackson/Pollock 4 caliper method)
      Current Energy: "WOOHOO!" See my journal HERE.

      "Paleo? Try it, but be wary of the cult mentality that comes with it. Paleovangelists are everywhere and a bit scary."

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by JamesS View Post
        I see your point, but keep in mind that what you are referring to does not constitute a personal attack.
        I read it as one. In your initial posts you were casually dismissive of anyone that disagreed with you as not having any common sense. Given that the 'common sense' on MDA is that soy is bad, your stance is quite clearly in the minority here. You must know that. So, I read your posts as being deliberately provocative.

        Look, I don't agree with 100% of what Mark has to say. But where I disagree with him (insidious weight gain....) I don't post here about those points declaring that they are 'obviously wrong' as that would be trolling the people on here who hold a different opinion from my own. I need to be mindful of the opinions and ideas of others.

        Originally posted by JamesS View Post
        But I do agree that I could have handled things a little differently. On the other hand I find it interesting that the focus keeps getting put on me and people ignore the fact that I was being targeted in this thread even before I made my first post. Then there is the fact that I mentioned about people playing games, which one poster just admitted to in another post. Yet despite all this and the continued attacks off topic I am being made out to be the bad guy.
        That's at least based in part because you hold a position that is not the consensus.

        However, it's really easy to have misunderstandings flare up on 'the internets', and I definitely see that with you. You start out thinking that you are giving 'nothing', when actually you have misperceived the baseline environment you are posting into and are provoking. Then people respond to the perceived provocation. Then you give as good as you get in a tit-for-tat manner, forgetting that
        1. They may be responding to a perceived insult from you in a previous post, or
        2. They might not be intending to insult you at all

        If either of those situations is the case, then tit-for-tat is the wrong response for you to take. I think that it's actually more constructive for you to just let some insults fly. Rise above them. Maybe even apologise. I personally find it *very* easy to apologise for things where I haven't done anything wrong (since in my head I'm really apologising for them being a mental defective). Make sense?

        Originally posted by JamesS View Post
        So how is it that if I make a generalization about people not using common sense for example and I am evil yet people can be posting personal attacks against me even before I start posting and they can continue throughout the entire thread and not only is there not even a peep about that but I am not expected to react even though it is acceptable for people to react to a generalization that is not a personal attack. You don't see something wrong with this extreme one sidedness? I feel like I am in the middle of a bunch of juveniles in high school and because I am not part of their clique and kissing their butts that I am to be ostracized as much as possible. Its too bad that expression of other ideas is so controlled by a few here so that only what they approve is allowed. That really discredits a site since only a few views, right or wrong, are allowed. So if false information is being propagated people are still only going to hear that false information. Being a lawyer that would be like you going in to Court and only the opposing counsel being able to speak and present evidence. Would you like that and think it is fair? What would our court system be like if that were the case? Everyone would be guilty or innocent depending on what side is allowed to speak and present evidence.

        James
        Look, I think that the key word here is grace. Please have more of it. Sometimes the 'other' person you are debating with is an idiot, or they mistyped something, or they misinterpreted you, or maybe even sometimes they are just wrong. You don't have to stick it to them in any or even all of those situations.

        Additionally, there's usually 10x the number of readers as posters, so most of the 'value' in your posts is actually going to people who are not posting at all. Why not direct your helpful guidance to them?

        Edit: case in point - BONZ. He is one of the nicest trolls you'll ever meet, but he is still clearly trolling you. In actual fact, I think they are trying to help you. The lesson to be learned from BONZ is, don't feed the troll. Just go to your mental happy place and move past his posts without responding.
        Last edited by magicmerl; 09-22-2012, 12:07 AM.
        Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

        Griff's cholesterol primer
        5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
        Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
        TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
        bloodorchid is always right

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by magicmerl View Post
          BONZ. He is one of the nicest trolls you'll ever meet,
          Awww shucks, thanks!

          Originally posted by magicmerl View Post
          but he is still clearly trolling you.
          <sly smile> Guilty


          Originally posted by magicmerl View Post
          In actual fact, I think they are trying to help you. The lesson to be learned from BONZ is, don't feed the troll. Just go you your mental happy place and move past his posts without responding.
          Or don't be a condescending a-hole to EVERY SINGLE PERSON you talk to and BONZ will mind his own business and simply soak in the information provided.... which is after all why I come here in the first place. I don't like bullies, even pissant little internet bullies...... if you insist on poking people in the eye, I'm gonna poke you in the chest and redirect your energy.
          Went Primal: 20 DEC 2011
          Starting: 6'1" 220 lbs
          Starting Energy: "bleh...."
          Current: 183 lbs @ 8.33% BF (Jackson/Pollock 4 caliper method)
          Current Energy: "WOOHOO!" See my journal HERE.

          "Paleo? Try it, but be wary of the cult mentality that comes with it. Paleovangelists are everywhere and a bit scary."

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by BONZ View Post
            Awww shucks, thanks!
            <sly smile> Guilty
            Or don't be a condescending a-hole to EVERY SINGLE PERSON you talk to and BONZ will mind his own business and simply soak in the information provided.... which is after all why I come here in the first place. I don't like bullies, even pissant little internet bullies...... if you insist on poking people in the eye, I'm gonna poke you in the chest and redirect your energy.
            Bonz is not a true troll as he is self-aware & owns & even talks about the reason for his trollish behavior. He doesn't hide, he reveals & doesn't deny he's being entertained & pissed off. Trolls act their part while hiding their true motivations. Plus the fact that Bonz exults in the compliment of being called out. Bonz is thick skinned, funny, insightful, self-aware & smart. Just the stances one ought to assume in their approach posting & bantering on the internets. He tells us his motivations, James.

            You are so close, this close, to seeing that we aren't attacking you, as a person, nor are we attacking ALL of your assertions & evidence. We dislike & we attack your attack mode while claiming, apparently without either self-awareness nor humility nor perhaps the inability or the unwillingness to apologize, a flip flop between "poor misunderstood me" & "stupid you". Mostly the latter. People are offended & pissed off by that "stupid you" tone & overt wording, your haughty, dismissive tone & put downs.

            Can you not see that? Can you apologize? Is that part of your natural or enforced psychological make-up? Or do you ascribe to the view, that many too-smart-for-their-own-good intelligent people, that are trapped in & by their egos, into thinking their shit doesn't smell? But the rest of us, man, we're seriously stinking up this place.

            My business partners are both Mensa members, one is off the charts intelligent (I think he's an E.T. or at least a half-breed!)
            So, I do have some recent real-life experience in dealing with arrogant geniuses. It's not always fun (but often it is actually, when I keep my cool & humour), but I'm seeing the forest not just the trees. Plus they are great guys, & someday we'll sit on a private beach with the stereotypical umbrella drinks in hand & laugh about all my/their argumentative bantering & debating.

            Why do I take the time and effort to reply to you in such terms, James?
            To toss out some things for you to think about & self-reflect on?
            Is it because I'm attacking you, or is it coz I'm trying to help you?

            Think of these things, James. & take your time. No need to reply point by point in a defensive nor an offensive way to my post or anyone's posts. Just look in the mirror & see your inner self & honestly reflect & consider these things I/we are saying...
            Last edited by Betorq; 09-21-2012, 12:19 AM.
            "Science is not belief but the will to find out." ~ Anonymous
            "Culture of the mind must be subservient to the heart." ~ Gandhi
            "The flogging will continue until morale improves." ~ Unknown

            Comment


            • #96
              Betorq, first of all you're too kind, thank you sir! Second... his reply to that is, I believe..... going to be epic! Maybe not in a good way if his past behavior is any indicator.

              "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." ~ Doesn't matter who said it, every quote on the internet is credited to Abraham Lincoln. Ghandi is ready as a second in the event you have two quotes in the same paragraph.
              Went Primal: 20 DEC 2011
              Starting: 6'1" 220 lbs
              Starting Energy: "bleh...."
              Current: 183 lbs @ 8.33% BF (Jackson/Pollock 4 caliper method)
              Current Energy: "WOOHOO!" See my journal HERE.

              "Paleo? Try it, but be wary of the cult mentality that comes with it. Paleovangelists are everywhere and a bit scary."

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by JamesS View Post
                The WAPF is a complete joke. Their ridiculous claims have been discredited so many times. And now they have Mercola as a spokesperson who has also made numerous discredited claims. I have addressed the bogus claims made by both WAPF and Mercola in previous posts. Again, this is an example of why I don't follow propaganda sites like WAPF and rely on real sources of research such as Medline.
                I suppose I was just blinded by their science:

                1. FDA Soy References
                2. Studies showing adverse effects of soy 1939-2008
                3. Studies showing adverse effects of isoflavones 1951-2010

                Back when I was first introduced to this information, it was 2001-ish. I was a vegan then, and a member of a very large board of vegetarians. It caused a massive stir, and most everyone said the same thing that you did: that WAPF was a propaganda organization, not backed by science, making ridiculous claims, etc.

                Because -- at the time -- I still had research capacity through the university library and access to most of these papers in their electronic format (through Lexus/Nexus searches and similar), i was actually able to read the majority of the articles on this list, and couldn't refute the conclusions that WAPF had drawn, even though I tried to.

                I am not an ignorant, uneducated fool who is easily "duped." I study and read and dig deeper. I have this whole time.

                As far as I'm concerned, the organization is not a "complete joke" -- even though I do not like a lot of their particular methodologies in communicating their messages (which I find clumsy and often difficult for the average person to take seriously). I feel that if their information wasn't presented in such an "alarmist!" fashion, then it would be more accessible to people.

                That being said, as an organization of people who have had some great political impact, I have to say that the activism has worked. By being a part of the WAPF, we were able to work to help maintain the family run farms that provided the many dairy, egg, and meat products that we prefer -- and I've been able to do that in two countries.

                Socially, the organization here not only provides easy access to difficult-to-get products (like fermented cod liver oil which my husband has taken religiously since 2001 and it cleared up his psoriasis after he'd lived with it for over a decade trying any number of treatments that didn't do much for symptoms, let alone causes), but also great opportunities to meet like minded people, access to our cow share, a network of people who love fermenting things. I'm looking forward to our summer mass gatherings where we go out to the cow-share farm, grab inexpensive produce along the way, set up long tables as a group, and get to fermenting the heck out of salsa that we then pick up several weeks later all jarred up at the milk-drop place. It really gave us a reliable social network of farms and a community of people when we first arrived.

                So, I do not accept that the organization is a "joke" or even that their science is.

                Going soy-free improved my health. I'm not going to simply consume soy because whatever you refuted says that I should. There's plenty of things to eat, so why would I "need" to consume soy?

                I don't know much about mercola. I've heard of him over the years, but. . . I never thought anything of him really.

                Comment


                • #98
                  In an attempt to show solidarity, I have not used any tamari this past week, while this thread winds down.

                  I still think its not harmful for me, as its such a tiny % of my diet. I gave up miso & tempeh/tofu many years ago, after reading WAPF info about shrinking gonads & Hawaiian soy-eating men's brains weighing less in autopsy compared to non-soy eating men in their community. THAT got my interest!
                  "Science is not belief but the will to find out." ~ Anonymous
                  "Culture of the mind must be subservient to the heart." ~ Gandhi
                  "The flogging will continue until morale improves." ~ Unknown

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Wow, 10 pages. I knew your wouldn't disappoint. Swami was right. I quit reading as soon as our resident soy shill arrived.
                    Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

                    Comment


                    • we let DS have organic tamari at school. they have tamari rice balls as one of their snacks/treats, so i'm cool with it. I figure the intense amount of primal foods that he eats counteracts a drizzle of tamari once a week. LOL

                      Comment


                      • James
                        Just one, maybe two questions.
                        With regards to the assessment of Soy value to nutrition in the article introduction:
                        On a good-bad scale, they probably come in at a 35:65 ratio, with the 65 lined up on the negative side.
                        On the basis of the way Soy is marketed to general consumers and incorporated into a wide range of food products, and without justifications and qualifiers please, as I have taken the time to look at the pro Soy arguments you have presented here and in the past.

                        Do you agree with that statement?
                        If not what ratio would you put the Soy pro's & con's at?

                        If you can not answer this in one or two lines, please don't bother answering at all.

                        For the record I agree with the article and feel that the 35:65 ratio of Pro's vs Con's is fairly appropriate given all the evidence I have seen.
                        "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

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