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Is Paleo nothing more than Atkins Diet reborn ????

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  • #31
    Call me what you want, I really don't give a shit. The inuit had perfect health because they lived on meat, zero carbs. No disease, no carries, perfect teeth, ect, ect, ect. I don't eat a zero carb diet but I think its good model. And this isn't "my way". I didn't just make up this diet. I think we are all way healthier than the average American. I think better health can be achieve by avoiding processed foods, grains, and sugars. But there is good, better, and best. Hell you eat rice, what does your opinion matter anyways. I thought this was supposed to be a paleo diet forum
    Paleo since November 2011 - Carnivore since June 2012
    Before and after pics
    http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread65846.html
    Primal Sucess Story
    http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread65400.html
    Primal Journal
    http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...tml#post955444

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    • #32
      Bennett, careful trusting too much in science. You can find science to prove anything. When I was a vegan, damn straight I had all the science that let me know how bad meat was and how it ages us. Repeat for low fat etc. etc. etc. Science is great to a point....

      It's their life, but for you to go out and tell them that maybe they should eat some more carbohydrates for weight loss is absolutely ridiculous.
      This is a situation I see all the time on here "I'm not losing weight, I ate 20 grams of carbs yesterday and am just feeling like shit, this isn't working". If that person doesn't eat more carbs (good PRIMAL carbs), they run a real likelihood of abandoning the whole primal thing altogether. Science is one thing, but human nature is another and why primal works for so many people is that handy 20% clause which allows use some bad along with a whole lot of good.

      It's irresponsible to encourage people to eat in a way that they are miserable and is not sustainable, when the addition of healthy foods would give them an equally healthy diet that they can sustain on. I'm doing Whole 30 right now, and let me tell you, a banana has kept me from plunging headfirst into the Haagen Daz. Carbs, yep.....

      I do believe some people do great on low carb and it must be a god send. But for many of us the addition of some carbs is a god send, and probably not that far off of this "elusive" optimal diet anyway.

      http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
      Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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      • #33
        Originally posted by magnolia1973 View Post
        Bennett, careful trusting too much in science. You can find science to prove anything. When I was a vegan, damn straight I had all the science that let me know how bad meat was and how it ages us. Repeat for low fat etc. etc. etc. Science is great to a point....



        This is a situation I see all the time on here "I'm not losing weight, I ate 20 grams of carbs yesterday and am just feeling like shit, this isn't working". If that person doesn't eat more carbs (good PRIMAL carbs), they run a real likelihood of abandoning the whole primal thing altogether. Science is one thing, but human nature is another and why primal works for so many people is that handy 20% clause which allows use some bad along with a whole lot of good.

        It's irresponsible to encourage people to eat in a way that they are miserable and is not sustainable, when the addition of healthy foods would give them an equally healthy diet that they can sustain on. I'm doing Whole 30 right now, and let me tell you, a banana has kept me from plunging headfirst into the Haagen Daz. Carbs, yep.....

        I do believe some people do great on low carb and it must be a god send. But for many of us the addition of some carbs is a god send, and probably not that far off of this "elusive" optimal diet anyway.
        I totally agree with everything you said. And I apologize to everyone for coming off the way I just have. I'm young and I have a temper, I have no problem admitting to that. This has taught me a lot as I really would like to do something in nutrition and you have to handle different people different ways. I was eating a high carb diet when I started paleo and I still felt great, I feel better now. But as I previously said any given person on this forum is in better health than the standard American on a SAD diet. Just watched my mother eat a bowl of ramen and gingerbread cookie for lunch.
        Paleo since November 2011 - Carnivore since June 2012
        Before and after pics
        http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread65846.html
        Primal Sucess Story
        http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread65400.html
        Primal Journal
        http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...tml#post955444

        Comment


        • #34
          Oh noes, I eat rice! A lot of paleo folks do things like that, or they drink beer, or whatever. Mark Sisson sometimes puts sugar in coffee. It's not a purity test.

          The Inuit had good health. So did many other peoples who ate carbs.

          If science had proven conclusively what produced ideal health, then it would be simple. Even the paleo experts don't agree on what's ideal (see Robb Wolf's take on dairy or on carbs versus Mark Sisson's, for example).
          “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

          Owly's Journal

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Owly View Post
            Oh noes, I eat rice! A lot of paleo folks do things like that, or they drink beer, or whatever. Mark Sisson sometimes puts sugar in coffee. It's not a purity test.

            The Inuit had good health. So did many other peoples who ate carbs.

            If science had proven conclusively what produced ideal health, then it would be simple. Even the paleo experts don't agree on what's ideal (see Robb Wolf's take on dairy or on carbs versus Mark Sisson's, for example).
            agreed. sorry for getting so defensive, in fact I had a beer yesterday lol
            Paleo since November 2011 - Carnivore since June 2012
            Before and after pics
            http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread65846.html
            Primal Sucess Story
            http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread65400.html
            Primal Journal
            http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...tml#post955444

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by bustamove View Post
              Sure seems to me the whole Paleo movement is nothing more than Atkins Diet reborn again...?? Unless I'm missing something?? Atkins preached high protien with hefty healthy fats and low to no carbs. So why is Paleo better or more advanced than Atkins?? Just wondering - thanks
              No. It isn't.

              Get a copy of the Paleo Diet and have a look. Cordain is actually preaching something more like moderate carb. He characterizes the "paleo" diet as "high protein, low glycemic index".

              Current Atkins is moderate (not high) protein and low carb. Cordain is saying high (not moderate) protein and moderate (not low) carb. Cordain actually gives a figure of 22% to 40% carbs. Not low. He wants the carbs to be low glycemic index, so he appreciates they hold dangers for stable blood-sugar levels, but he's prepared to countenance up to 40% of calories as carbs, so he's not really low-carb.

              I'm not at all sure he's right in this. But that is what he's saying.

              There's a lot more to it than this, but even at this level -- simple discussion of macronutrients, the (current) Atkins and the paleo strategies are different.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by BennettC View Post
                agreed. sorry for getting so defensive, in fact I had a beer yesterday lol
                No worries. I have celiac disease, and your beer would make me very, very ill. We all have different reactions to things.
                “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

                Owly's Journal

                Comment


                • #38
                  I started on his version, its rough. no dairy, no bacon, low fat. he tells you to eat all you want and that's where he screws up
                  Paleo since November 2011 - Carnivore since June 2012
                  Before and after pics
                  http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread65846.html
                  Primal Sucess Story
                  http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread65400.html
                  Primal Journal
                  http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...tml#post955444

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    According to Dr Johnson's book, The Fat Switch, the Inuit's macro diet was 50% fat, 35% protein, and 15% glycogen from the animals they ate. Average intake was 3000 calories.

                    Here's the problem with a vlc diet. It can increase your uric acid production through the breakdown of proteins (muscle or diet). Exercising excessively will also raise uric acid levels through the breakdown of muscle. Too low a body fat % will also up uric acid production. Hibernating animals that didn't put on enough fat for winter will come out of hibernation in a last ditch effort to find food once their fat supplies have exhausted. The trigger that wakes them up is high uric acid.
                    Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Scott F View Post
                      According to Dr Johnson's book, The Fat Switch, the Inuit's macro diet was 50% fat, 35% protein, and 15% glycogen from the animals they ate. Average intake was 3000 calories.

                      Here's the problem with a vlc diet. It can increase your uric acid production through the breakdown of proteins (muscle or diet). Exercising excessively will also raise uric acid levels through the breakdown of muscle. Too low a body fat % will also up uric acid production. Hibernating animals that didn't put on enough fat for winter will come out of hibernation in a last ditch effort to find food once their fat supplies have exhausted. The trigger that wakes them up is high uric acid.
                      That's certainly not what the OP was asking.

                      However, if this needs any comment ... I don't know who Dr. Johnson is, or why he thinks he knows, but reliable sources seem to indicate that the traditional Inuit diet was something like 80% fat and 20% protein with a pretty negligible carbohydrate content. That certainly seems to be what Stefansson says -- and how he was eating during the Bellevue Hospital experiment. The notion that one could get 15% of one's calories from muscle glycogen is preposterous.

                      And no, that's a perfectly silly piece of mythologization of what would happen on a VLC diet. You know, it comes down to this: the sources are out there: read them:

                      The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living: An Expert Guide to Making the Life-Saving Benefits of Carbohydrate Restriction Sustainable and Enjoyable: Stephen D. Phinney,Jeff S. Volek: 9780983490708: Amazon.com: Books

                      Or don't. But don't comment on the basis of not having done so.

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                      • #41
                        No it wasn't 80% fat. I already posted up above about Johnson and who he was that includes a link to a discussion with Dr Mercola about Johnson new book. Everything in the book is/has been submitted to peer review. Johnson is a kidney specialist and is chief of the division of renal health and hypertension at the University of Colorado. My talking about Johnson is related to something another poster mentioned. Here's the youtube interview between Mercola and Johnson

                        Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          the 80% belief for the Inuit diet you are referring to comes Vilhjalmur Stefansson and his friend K. Andersen. They were actic explorers who did a personal experiment. At the end of a year their blood looked milky and their cholesterol reached 800 mg/dl. Johnson sources everything in this book from medical journals....including this. "This is higher in fat content [the 80% diet experiment] then the typcial Eskimo diet which is closer to 50 percent fat. 35-36"
                          Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Owly View Post
                            Low carb is optimal for some people, but for some of us it is a complete failure. Don't assume everyone needs to eat the same way you do. I lose fat more successfully with moderate carbs, as do others around here. Not all of us have metabolic issues or other health conditions that make vlc necessary or even preferable.
                            I may have missed this in a post somewhere, but roughly how many grams of carbs are best for you? It's tough to battle over low carb if we have different definitions of "low."

                            For reference, I'm a petite woman who just re-started exercising, and I think of "regular" primal (for me) as ~85 grams carbs. For a he-man like Bennet, I think of "regular" as ~120. IMO anything up to about ~150 is primal okay. It's hard to go any higher without cheating into SAD anyway.
                            5'0" female, 45 years old. Started Primal October 31, 2011, at a skinny fat 111.5 lbs. Low weight: 99.5 lb on a fast. Gained back to 115(!) on SAD chocolate, potato chips, and stress. Currently 111.

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                            • #44
                              I'm an active, reasonably lean and muscular woman, 5'8" and 150 pounds (give or take depending on cycle). I'm in the 100 to 150g range most days. My large, very active, very muscular and lean partner who works a very physical job will often get up to the 200g+ level, but he is working 10+ hours and lifting or running on top of that, so that's in the context of eating 4500 to 6000 calories a day.
                              “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

                              Owly's Journal

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                              • #45
                                And I should have been clearer. Almost any primal eater will be low carb in SAD terms. I am talking about vlc as one might see in this community, the sub-50g or so level.
                                “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

                                Owly's Journal

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