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Is Paleo nothing more than Atkins Diet reborn ????

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  • #16
    If you just look at the low carb aspect of the food aspect of Primal, and if you disregard the emphasis PB has on organic and wholesomely produced foods, then I guess it's somewhat like Atkins. But you are then only looking at the weight loss portion of PB which is only a subset of the food portion. Because some people on PB are already at a good weight, and some people want to gain.

    Then there are nine other broad guidelines to PB which cover avoiding poisons, exercising, getting sun and sleep, using one's mind, and getting in play time.

    The forums seem to emphasize food, I'm guessing, because most of us really don't have too many questions on how to get sun or how to play, etc. When I check the forums, I usually see the most people viewing the nutrition section and the exercise section is usually pretty well read also.

    In conclusion, if you take a piece (weight loss) of a piece (what/how to eat) of PB, there are some similarities to Atkins.

    Atkins (even in the 70s) is pretty much a numbers game: eat low carbs and lose weight. I can eat low carb by living on canned tuna and store bought mayonnaise. But I'd be exposing myself to BPAs from the cans and soy in both the tuna and the mayo. And that, to my understanding, wouldn't be very Primal.
    "Right is right, even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong, even if everyone is doing it." - St. Augustine

    B*tch-lite

    Who says back fat is a bad thing? Maybe on a hairy guy at the beach, but not on a crab.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by BennettC View Post
      low carb is optimal because its a well established fact that glucose is the #1 cause of rapid again
      That's not quite right. Glucose isn't the problem but fructose is. Fructose increases cellular uric acid. That uric acid affect the mitochondria's ability to produce ATP making the person less energetic and willing to exercise. Effectively, uric acid is flipping a switching causing the person to put on fat. What might the evolutionary purpose for this fat switch? It's for putting on fat for the lean winter months.

      In the summer and fall months fruit and berries, also honey, was in season and our ancestors were sourcing this for calories. Bears, and other animals, are doing the exact same thing right now, trying to fatten up for winter. Now that people are eating fructose year round their body thinks is that time of year to put on fat for lean months ahead. Turning off this fat storage switch and turning on a fat burning switch is a matter of food choices.

      To lose weight then is mostly of matter of identifying all those foods that raise uric acid levels and keep uric acid as low as possible. Fructose is the main cause. Fructans are polymers of fructose that plants store for energy. Wheat is the primary source of Fructans in the SAD. Gut bacteria breaks fructans down into fructose....which you then absorb. Eating a lot of wheat gives you the Pillsbury Doughboy Syndrome. Another source that causes an increase in uric acid is brewer's yeast, the beer belly. And it doesn't matter if that beer is non-alcoholic. Umami foods, Krill for example, also raises uric acid. That's the uric acid mechanism whales use to fatten up for winter. So uric acid isn't simply a waste product but important biological signal for seasonal fat accumulation. You are partially right about glucose as it turns out concentrated sources of glucose (high glycemic foods) can be converted by the liver into fructose.

      Dr Johnson who just released his book, The Fat Switch, writes about all this and thinks the Metabolic Syndrome ought be called The fat Storage Mechanism. Johnson is the chief of the division of renal health and hypertension for the University of Colorado. This is their labs latest research and has been submitted to peer review medical journals.

      As far as Atkins goes Johnson would likely fall into the moderate fat and non starchy carbohydrate intake. What people are doing is eating sources of fructose (and/or drink beer) which switches on fat accumulation causing them to want to eat more and move less. Eating fat enhances the fat accumulation process. So the bacon cheeseburger (fructan wheat bun) with french fries (high fat and high glycemic potatoes), and large sugar/fructose soda is the perfect meal for turning on the fat switch and fatten up on.
      Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

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      • #18
        I never said anyone has to eat exactly as I do. 150-200 grams = less glucose yield than a SAD diet for sure. I mean take into account some people on a SAD diet eat up to 500 grams a day or more. Of course the lower the better, but like you said some people just can't do it. For instance there have been a lot of threads recently about depression issues because of low carb, in my opinion that's just food addiction and people are looking for something else to place blame on.
        Paleo since November 2011 - Carnivore since June 2012
        Before and after pics
        http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread65846.html
        Primal Sucess Story
        http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread65400.html
        Primal Journal
        http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...tml#post955444

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        • #19
          nice post, but I guess what I really mean is a high glucose yield for extended periods of time which cause glycated proteins and long term glysolated end products which are irreversible. For example berries were available maybe a month or two out of the whole year and honey was a rare find. Some fruit available during fall as well. In the south the wild persimmons are coming into season, had a taste of an early bloomer the other day out on my dads property. So glucose would have never been high for extended periods of time, also berries and honey are mostly fructose. Now people can buy fruit and whatnot whenever they want with exerting any energy for it. If you've ever gone out and gather wild berries you know this. Nice argument though with some great facts. Didn't know that about brewers yeast, some of my bodybuilding hero's were supplementing that. Also I'm not saying I don't eat fruit and honey, I just don't eat much of it. Especially since my goal right now is to bulk.

          @ Owly- seems like you are bitter towards me from our previous "debate" hope I didn't get off on the wrong foot with you, I'm here to make friends not enemies
          Last edited by BennettC; 09-17-2012, 08:57 AM.
          Paleo since November 2011 - Carnivore since June 2012
          Before and after pics
          http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread65846.html
          Primal Sucess Story
          http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread65400.html
          Primal Journal
          http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...tml#post955444

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Sabine View Post
            In addition paleo/primal is about more than food: sleep, exercise, play, are all part of it. Atkins is a great gateway, though; plenty of people come to paleo/primal through good old Atkins.
            You're right! I had some moderate success with Atkins years ago; it would have been better, but my husband at the time cheated on the diet pretty heavy every weekend, and that kind of temptation is sometimes hard to say no to. After one of those cheat weekends, we never really stopped. We resumed our previous way of living it up. We ultimately split, and I eventually went vegetarian (no cause and effect here). But being veg for health reasons, I never really felt healthier, just more difficult to go out to eat with. I got tired one day of banging my head against the feel-like-crap-all-the-time wall and tried to figure out what I should try to stop eating and start eating. I reflected that Atkins had been an "easy" way to lose weight, but I remember being concerned about all the substitute foods on offer (low-carb flour and snack bars and such) and the lack of emphasis on fruit and veg. A little research beyond that led me right to primal/paleo.
            I have lost 15 pounds (without much in the way of added exercise beyond the 4 miles a day walking that's already in my daily regimen) and feel much healthier. I'm not hungry all the time (as I always was in my veg-head days). Like one poster said, we all follow our own interpretation of paleo. My paleo list of foods right now excludes dairy (I pretty much OD'd on cheese while I was a veg) but I may try introducing raw dairy once I've reached my goal weight and have a suitable source for such.
            Last edited by waterjen; 09-17-2012, 09:05 AM.

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            • #21
              These stone age figurines, Venus figures, have been found all over Europe and date to 20,000-30,000 years. It's speculation but in the book Johnson talks about the head dress, or beaded hair, of these figurines represent a bee hive. IOW some of the girls may have been feed honey in an attempt to fatten them up in anticipation for pregnancy during extended lean times.
              Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

              Comment


              • #22
                One other thought -- my emphasis has been on diet because that's what has been least healthy about me. One of the other posters was right about there being 10 primal laws:
                1. Eat plants and animals
                2. Avoid poisonous things
                3. Move frequently at a slow pace
                4. Lift heavy things
                5. Sprint once in a while
                6. Get adequate sleep
                7. Play
                8. Get adequate sunlight
                9. Avoid stupid mistakes
                10. Use your brain

                My focus has been on #1 and #2 on this list, because that's where I needed the most help. I move frequently at a slow pace (usually nice 4-mile walk with the dog, sometimes shorter but more strenuous hikes on the weekend). I already get adequate sleep. I play. I get sunlight. I try like hell to avoid stupid mistakes. I use my brain. That just leaves LHT, which I do a little of, and sprint, which I have to commit to at some point.
                My point here is that many people may be here for all 10 reasons, but may be focusing on different points that will make the biggest difference to them immediately, sort of a tunnel-vision perspective, if you will. Perhaps they already have certain habits, so they may not even think about the fact that they're following a primal blueprint law by getting adequate sleep or sprinting. As a second nature behavior, they wouldn't necessarily think about it. For example, I automatically don't steal, which comes from a different set of commandments, but I don't think every night when I go to bed that I've not stolen something that day. So I move and get sun and don't really think about the fact that I'm meeting two commandments of the primal blueprint. It's just second nature. But avoiding poisons is still newish to me, as is eating bacon (happily enough), so those are the areas where I tend to concentrate.

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                • #23
                  Bennett, I think you are a very enthusiastic young guy who has found what works for him and has assumed that he's found the one true way. Some of us tried vlc for a long time and found that extended ketosis did not work. I have never had a big sweet tooth and didn't crave sugar. I simply felt depressed, and my physical and mental fatigue did not get better even after weeks and weeks of trying to adapt. I get irritated when someone insists that was food addiction and that maybe I didn't try hard enough or was doing it wrong. The simple solution for me was an increase in carb intake, and my weight loss stall actually broke when I did that. I am leaner and happier eating some fruit and potatoes.

                  I don't like someone arrogantly insisting that my experience is untrue. You are young and excited and don't realize that not all of us were obese kids with messed up metabolisms and therefore might not need to (or want to) eat like you. Optimum health for me comes with eating moderate levels of clean carbs to maintain my mental health as well as the physical aspects.
                  “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

                  Owly's Journal

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                  • #24
                    I like what Owly is saying, and I would like to emphasize the self-experimentation portion. As long as you do not starve yourself and stick to as natural foods as possible you can try and try again to find your optimal foods. I know that I have become more willing to experiment since I went exploring different ways to eat. I am not big on theory for all, I concentrate on my body's workings and its many quirks. It is actually interesting.
                    My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                    When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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                    • #25
                      For instance there have been a lot of threads recently about depression issues because of low carb, in my opinion that's just food addiction and people are looking for something else to place blame on.
                      Yeah, no that's not right. The problem is that you are talking to people who have heard for years "willpower this", "weak that", "try harder".

                      I can't go VLC unless you want me to rip your head off and throw it across the room. And then promptly fall asleep. The good thing is that it doesn't take much in terms of carbs- two servings of fruit and something like a sweet potato to make me not like that.

                      Part of primal is finding what works for you- science aside, you can only be miserable for so long before you have to throw in the towel. You can throw in the towel and have a few servings of primal approved fruit...or just walk away back to SAD and CW.

                      I think the problem with your comment is that it encourages people to give up on primal, versus using all the approved foods to make a diet that works for that body. I read it all the time "I can't handle being primal, all I eat are meats, green veggies and fat and I feel like shit".... well, you do know you can eat fruits and a number of starches.

                      And low fat/high carb works great for a lot of people.

                      http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                      Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Owly View Post
                        Bennett, I think you are a very enthusiastic young guy who has found what works for him and has assumed that he's found the one true way. Some of us tried vlc for a long time and found that extended ketosis did not work. I have never had a big sweet tooth and didn't crave sugar. I simply felt depressed, and my physical and mental fatigue did not get better even after weeks and weeks of trying to adapt. I get irritated when someone insists that was food addiction and that maybe I didn't try hard enough or was doing it wrong. The simple solution for me was an increase in carb intake, and my weight loss stall actually broke when I did that. I am leaner and happier eating some fruit and potatoes.

                        I don't like someone arrogantly insisting that my experience is untrue. You are young and excited and don't realize that not all of us were obese kids with messed up metabolisms and therefore might not need to (or want to) eat like you. Optimum health for me comes with eating moderate levels of clean carbs to maintain my mental health as well as the physical aspects.
                        When did I say your experience was untrue, I believe you. You persist that carbs work for you, good for you. And I wasn't particularly referring to you with the depression issue nor was I being arrogant or unsentimental. I've been down that road with more than depression, suicide attempts. I'm simply beating on the point that there are over 7,000 published scientific paper on glycation and how its killing us in the form of disease and rapid aging. These are scientific facts that you cannot argue with and this information needs to get out there. Do you even know what glycation is? And if you didn't lose weight on low carb I would bet money your calories weren't right. I gained 10lbs when I started vlc because I did not count my calories and I drank heavy whipping cream all morning. Personal opinions cannot argue with facts. They taught me the difference between fact and opinion in the first grade! If you don't believe all this, get out there and do your homework. Just because I'm young doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about, I did my homework and my research. Glad you found what works for you and have peace of mind.
                        Last edited by BennettC; 09-17-2012, 09:43 AM.
                        Paleo since November 2011 - Carnivore since June 2012
                        Before and after pics
                        http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread65846.html
                        Primal Sucess Story
                        http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread65400.html
                        Primal Journal
                        http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...tml#post955444

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          You persist that carbs work for you, good for you. And I wasn't particularly referring to you with the depression issue nor was I being arrogant or unsentimental.
                          If that's your goal, you might want to re-word this statement:

                          These are scientific facts that you cannot argue with and this information needs to get out there. Do you even know what glycation is? And if you didn't lose weight on low carb I would bet money your calories weren't right.
                          That's right there, is pretty hard for a person to accept as a friendly chat/suggestion. If you do want to attract someone's attention to your heart's belief, you would catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Trying to avoid confrontational wording that states super-directly and aggressively that the other person is wrong, or assumes that s/he 'can't deny' your righteousness is a not the most most winning strategy. Gentler, smoother wording is generally more convincing and seductive.
                          Last edited by Leida; 09-17-2012, 09:58 AM.
                          My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                          When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I have read the research, thanks. Those issues tend to come with very high blood sugars, which aren't a problem for me. And don't just assume I overate. I measured and tracked every bite of food I put in my mouth to the point of obsession (ate 2 chocolate chips, gotta put it into FitDay asap!). You have no idea how miserable I was, what it was doing to my academic life (I'm a grad student), my mental health, and my relationship. VLC does not work for everyone and insisting it does won't make it so.
                            “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

                            Owly's Journal

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I feel like you just keep making things up about me. When did I insist everyone should eat a vlc diet? I said it is scientifically proven to be the best way to burn fat, avoid disease, and rapid aging. The choice is personal. People ultimately do what is best for them in their mind. Have you read all these peoples post about their weight loss being stalled? I just give them the facts, I'm not telling anyone what to do. It's their life, but for you to go out and tell them that maybe they should eat some more carbohydrates for weight loss is absolutely ridiculous. For mental saneness perhaps because its also hard to lose it your under stress or depressed. Either way the way you come off in your post towards me, why would I write my words off like honey, I'll throw vinegar in your face. Your just being defensive, understandable but I'm not attacking you I'm just putting facts out there for the ignornant
                              Paleo since November 2011 - Carnivore since June 2012
                              Before and after pics
                              http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread65846.html
                              Primal Sucess Story
                              http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread65400.html
                              Primal Journal
                              http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...tml#post955444

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                And you wonder why you get called arrogant? Carbs broke my stall and work well for me, but I don't insist they're best for everyone. Why do you need to insist your way is the only one for optimal health? Many people around here are lean and healthy on a range of macros, and a look at long lived cultures around the world shows a similar diversity.
                                “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

                                Owly's Journal

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