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  • BOTTOM LINE: Ketosis, when sustained long term, ie CMA, DOES lead to autophagy. Come out of ketosis and autophagy ends with it. Get into & stay in ketosis by fasting or by eating fats and avoiding amino acids (proteins) and sugars/carbs. Therefore you will stay in autophagic states while consuming LOW amounts of fatty acids (50 calories or less? I think so and my experience and the experiences of others bears this out as true, at least anecdotally.) This may also be related to whether you are fully fat-adapted in the first place.

    Coconut oil would qualify as would fully fermented low carb veggies whose soluable & insoluable fibres have been transformed into medium- and short-chain fatty acids. Butter, with residual amounts of errant proteins, might kick one out if consumed in excess while fasting, or more likely if moderately consumed, it would slow down maximal ketogenic and autophagic processes. Ghee would solve that issue entirely, as like coconut it is pure fat.


    Some of the responses & questions @ the end of The Blog of Michael R. Eades, M.D. Ketosis cleans our cells are really good, as Dr Eades answers their questions in detail...

    Some other valuable &/or interesting quotes cherry picked by moi' & excellent reads, links & vids on fasting.

    "10-15 years ago Bill Bright published a book on fasting that includes safe ways to prepare the body for a fast & to return to regular eating and alternative ways to fast when one has restrictions from an absolute or water-only fast. This is for spiritual reasons, but the practice is fairly common in the Christian community today, and fasting also is common practice in yoga-type disciplines. So without knowing all of the modern science unlocking the numerous health benefits of fasting, it seems people have done this ritually or intuitively for thousands of years."

    "I have had the absolute privilege of doing a 14 day fast (water only) with Alec Burton in Sydney, Australia. I have also seen first-hand the benefits of fasting in relation to kidney failure, whereby someone diagnosed with 8yrs to live (on regular dialysis) by the top nephrologists in Australia is still alive today, 28 years later. Alec is the best in the world in the field of fasting and I would highly recommend taking the time to look at the following links, doing some research on his site, and watching some of his videos:
    Alec Burton


    Video: Dr. Burton “Fasting for Health and Recovery” | Alec Burton "

    Cancer | Perfect Health Diet

    The Truth About Cleansing and Fasting | LIVESTRONG.COM

    Fasted training and autophagy, what are the parameters? - PaleoHacks.com

    Fasted Training Boosts Muscle Growth? | Intermittent fasting diet for fat loss, muscle gain and health
    Last edited by Betorq; 09-10-2012, 06:05 PM.
    "Science is not belief but the will to find out." ~ Anonymous
    "Culture of the mind must be subservient to the heart." ~ Gandhi
    "The flogging will continue until morale improves." ~ Unknown

    Comment


    • Ty for all that. I do have some ghee I can use instead of butter. I was starting to wonder today if I should just not worry so much about my carbs and maybe increase it. I guess this answers that

      My 48 hours began a few minutes ago
      65lbs gone and counting!!

      Fat 2 Fit - One Woman's Journey

      Comment


      • Betorq - thanks for all the data. I will check this out sometime later in the week. This still makes me wonder about the statement I read about coffee kicking you out of autophagy - maybe that was a random statement by someone who didn't know for sure, but I'm really curious now. Coffee was a blessing on my extended fast. I managed lastweek without it, but I missed it.

        Comment


        • I'm a bad boy! My 48 hr fast began since my dinner w/ excess calories not limited ones, as it should be done... I've just got this weakness for local prawns dipped in melted Kerrygold butter, olive oil & garlic powder & seasalt . Dinner was local organic broccoli florets steamed lightly then covered w/ slivers of Kerrygold white cheddar melted on them. Arugula and sweet peppers, my flesh is weak, lol...

          It's ok, I may actually do a 48+ hr 100% water fast this time, just so I don't get locked into any one way of doing these things or in my thinking... Water fasting IS easier actually, no thinking about which pickle juice to have, or "should I nibble on some kraut..?"
          "Science is not belief but the will to find out." ~ Anonymous
          "Culture of the mind must be subservient to the heart." ~ Gandhi
          "The flogging will continue until morale improves." ~ Unknown

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Piscator View Post
            Betorq - thanks for all the data. I will check this out sometime later in the week. This still makes me wonder about the statement I read about coffee kicking you out of autophagy - maybe that was a random statement by someone who didn't know for sure, but I'm really curious now. Coffee was a blessing on my extended fast. I managed lastweek without it, but I missed it.
            Maybe it was coffee with half & half, haha...
            "Science is not belief but the will to find out." ~ Anonymous
            "Culture of the mind must be subservient to the heart." ~ Gandhi
            "The flogging will continue until morale improves." ~ Unknown

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Betorq View Post
              BOTTOM LINE: Ketosis, when sustained long term, ie CMA, DOES lead to autophagy. Come out of ketosis and autophagy ends with it. Get into & stay in ketosis by fasting or by eating fats and avoiding amino acids (proteins) and sugars/carbs. Therefore you will stay in autophagic states while consuming LOW amounts of fatty acids (50 calories or less? I think so and my experience and the experiences of others bears this out as true, at least anecdotally.) This may also be related to whether you are fully fat-adapted in the first place.

              Coconut oil would qualify as would fully fermented low carb veggies whose soluable & insoluable fibres have been transformed into medium- and short-chain fatty acids. Butter, with residual amounts of errant proteins, might kick one out if consumed in excess while fasting, or more likely if moderately consumed, it would slow down maximal ketogenic and autophagic processes. Ghee would solve that issue entirely, as like coconut it is pure fat.
              I don't get the logic here. Kraut still has carbs. Please explain.

              I can see the idea that if something is pure fat, no carb or protein, it would not interrupt ketosis. So it wouldn't hurt but would it actually be helping any? I'm not sure on that one. Some coconut enthusiast sites say that you can drink jars of c oil and your fat will just melt off. I'm a little skeptical of that but perhaps a spoonful to take the edge off while fasting could be a useful tool. After all, if you got another day's worth of fasting from a tablespoon full of c-oil, it might be a good tradeoff.

              Still mulling over the options for next time. Being in ketosis when starting the fast definitely helped. And coming out of it with keto foods has helped to maintain the weight I lost without rebound. Lost five, bounced back one, then lost that again the next day.

              Very interesting info Betorq. Thanks for doing the digging.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                I don't get the logic here. Kraut still has carbs. Please explain.
                Critical Mas dude says that the Perfect Diet ppl say kraut is okay. I think on another fasting thread, someone presented the page number from the book, but this is from Critical Mas:

                Well coconut oil by itself may not be enough for the hungry. Have no fear, the Perfect Health Diet book came up with another idea. It said you can consume fermented vegetables on a fast. Wouldn’t the carbs from the vegetables interfere with achieving ketosis? Nope. From the book:
                Most vegetable carbohydrates are intercepted by gut bacteria, which digest vegetable fiber into short-chain fatty acids.
                If the book is correct, I could eat coconut oil and sauerkraut and still go into ketosis. I decided to test it out.
                • Monday night: My last food intake was at 10 PM.
                • Tuesday 10 AM: 1 tablespoon of coconut oil, 100 grams of cortido sauerkraut.
                • Tuesday 1 PM: 1 tablespoon of coconut oil, 100 grams of ghost pepper sauerkraut.

                The cortido sauerkraut has some carrots, so I was concerned that those carbs might be enough to prevent ketosis. But it didn’t. At 2:30 PM, I tested Moderate ketones on the Ketostix. Victory!
                65lbs gone and counting!!

                Fat 2 Fit - One Woman's Journey

                Comment


                • Ok, first morning of my fast. I am a bit ticked at my scale, I know it could be several things, but it says I weigh the same as the first morning of my fast last week! And during that time since, I went down about 3lbs, and over the last 5 days, slowly up 3lbs. Well not so slow this morning, it was 1.1 up this morning. arrgghhh

                  Attn: Babble Alert

                  I know not fat. And while I quit trying to figure out the scale, it still aggravates me. I did come off of my fast hungrier, and one day I had 1900+ calories but I had actually lost .4 that next day. Most of my days alternated between 1300 & 1500. I would hate to think that I am suppose to stay around 1200 or lower each day Net carbs high 30, lower 40, with a 50 and an 86 thrown in there. Fats 88 - 127. Protein still all over the place. 78-127, but mostly 80 days. But I have been more active outside also. And when I say active, it is fairly physical doing stuff in the yard/farm. Quite a bit of lifting semi-heavy things.

                  I just find my n=1 so hard to figure out, because I always seem to have so many variables. I can definitely see though, that all calories are not created equal. It is just aggravating sometimes, because I was losing more weight CW-style on 6+ meals a day, with beans most every day. Usually 2 -3 fruit a day. Potatoes most days. Granted I was hungry all day long. Went to bed and woke up hungry. But I kept calories in range but always at the top of my range - carbs were always topped out, and now since March I have been at the bottom-mid range and losing more slowly, sometimes even only a few pounds a month where I was losing 8 a month. And I know, you start to slow down the closer you get, but I am only half way, if that. I was doing about an hour a day of some kind of cardio. I quit doing that also because it seemed to make me even hungrier.

                  Argghh. I am just babbling. I guess I should journey so not to bore everyone but it helps to babble sometimes.
                  Last edited by gopintos; 09-11-2012, 06:31 AM. Reason: can't spell
                  65lbs gone and counting!!

                  Fat 2 Fit - One Woman's Journey

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by gopintos View Post
                    But I kept calories in range but always at the top of my range - carbs were always topped out, and now since March I have been at the bottom-mid range and losing more slowly, sometimes even only a few pounds a month where I was losing 8 a month.
                    I think I need to evaluate this more, really look at this and experiment. I am just worried about going backwards, but I think I need to really play around with all my numbers - calories and macros. And then part of me thinks I am over thinking this. I need to just go back to when I was just dumbly losing weight, when I was armed with no information at all. Back to when just cutting out sweets, breads, pastas seemed to do the trick. ugghh
                    65lbs gone and counting!!

                    Fat 2 Fit - One Woman's Journey

                    Comment


                    • I hit 20 to 21 hrs yesterday with 2 cups of broth. The hardest was hour 18. I was driving, and literally had to tajke deep belly breath to calm the spams in the stomach.
                      My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                      When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                        I don't get the logic here. Kraut still has carbs. Please explain.
                        Carbs in Sauerkraut
                        Popular Serving Sizes of Sauerkraut
                        1/4 cup Popular Serving Sizes of Sauerkraut
                        Net Carbs(g) 0.62
                        Sugar(g) 0.63
                        Fiber(g) 0.9
                        Total Carbs(g) 1.52
                        Ok, I concede there is "some" miniscule amounts of carbs & sugars in store bought sauerkrauts. 2 points favoring my argument: #1. I ferment my kimchis & sauerkrauts to the max, ie the fibres are softened from the conversion to fatty acids. Is that conversion total? I don't know. Are the simple sugars inherent in the veggies completely transformed? I can say without a doubt, YES! They are not tough membranes like the fibre, & they're the main food for the fermentation itself to happen. So sugar is gone, some, most or possibly all of the fibre is gone.(Will have to dig deeper on that question) #2. I only ate a spoonful, not a 1/4 cup. Mostly I drank the juices. Those pickle juices aren't at issue, agreed?
                        Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                        I can see the idea that if something is pure fat, no carb or protein, it would not interrupt ketosis. So it wouldn't hurt but would it actually be helping any? I'm not sure on that one. Some coconut enthusiast sites say that you can drink jars of c oil and your fat will just melt off. I'm a little skeptical of that but perhaps a spoonful to take the edge off while fasting could be a useful tool. After all, if you got another day's worth of fasting from a tablespoon full of c-oil, it might be a good tradeoff.
                        We're both on the same page on that one. I'll do a tsp on a fast knowing I stay in ketosis & autophagy. I guess I was doing a heaping tsp of kraut last week...For now, any future fasts I do, I'll confine myself to pickle juice as my 1st go-t0-hunger-helper. Coconut oil would be if I need to feel full or I wanted some energy.
                        Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                        Still mulling over the options for next time. Being in ketosis when starting the fast definitely helped. And coming out of it with keto foods has helped to maintain the weight I lost without rebound. Lost five, bounced back one, then lost that again the next day.

                        Very interesting info Betorq. Thanks for doing the digging.
                        It's my pleasure, as this kind of stuff is so interesting & beneficial to my own goals & activities, & hey it's great to be able to share it w/ others to their possible benefit as well. I actually lost weight since I broke the fast on Friday. I am leaner & look more muscular & my lover handle & belly padding is lessened, even though I've been my normal piggy self over the weekend.
                        "Science is not belief but the will to find out." ~ Anonymous
                        "Culture of the mind must be subservient to the heart." ~ Gandhi
                        "The flogging will continue until morale improves." ~ Unknown

                        Comment


                        • Betorq, thanks for the links earlier today.

                          I am on hour 72 now and this fast actually seems much easier than my 60 hour last week. A little hunger from time to time but not to bad. But no headaches or other common complaints.

                          I have read from a few sources that hunger actually goes down after day 3. Can someone who has done 3 + days comment on this?

                          Comment


                          • When I 1st starting fasting in the distant 80s, I used to get headaches, serious belly hunger pains, dizziness, low energy: the whole 9 yards... The hunger went away along w/ the headaches between 1.5-2 days. It's different for everyone. I was very lean & super athletic while in college, but also eating low fat, low protein vegetarian. I've much more body fat that I now carry around as I'm 47 & eat loads of fat & calories, and don't count the numbers. But I'm also more fat-adapted now.

                            So it's safe to say that the more you IF & stay in the low to med end of the PB zone, the hunger pain/feelings out to lessen or possibly even for some, go away. I have no way of estimating when the hunger signal will stop for you. Each time ought to be easier than the last, all things being equal.
                            Last edited by Betorq; 09-11-2012, 10:05 AM.
                            "Science is not belief but the will to find out." ~ Anonymous
                            "Culture of the mind must be subservient to the heart." ~ Gandhi
                            "The flogging will continue until morale improves." ~ Unknown

                            Comment


                            • Thanks a lot Betorq. Any other experienced long fasters, feel free to add your thoughts too!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by gmatt View Post
                                Thanks a lot Betorq. Any other experienced long fasters, feel free to add your thoughts too!
                                I did a 72 hour one not starting in ketosis already and had this: day one HUNGRY, day two flying higher than a kite wheee!, day three feeling tired and cold. I ended it there. Lost four pounds and gained them all back.

                                This past time was 4 days but starting already firmly in ketosis. Day one, first 12 hours a little hungry. Day two feeling fine, steady energy. Day three, feeling a little lightheaded, drank some kraut juice and felt fine. Day four, feeling perfectly normal, not really hungry just missing food because it tastes good. Broke fast with keto foods. Lost five pounds which are still gone.

                                I'm really starting to think that there is something to this longer duration idea, maybe 7-10 days but I think getting into keto first is important.

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