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  • Originally posted by sjmc View Post
    Well yeah I'd agree -- but maybe 30g of carbs wasn't sufficiently low to put them all in ketosis. I mean n=1, right? ; p
    As I understand it, the general advice for getting into ketosis is <20.
    Wow, is 20g really what you need to shoot for? Seems like you almost couldn't have any plant matter at all. Even eggs are relatively high-carb when 20g is your limit.
    "Don't go in there, General, it's a trap! That's a grain chamber. It makes people like you into people like me."

    Comment


    • In all seriousness, though, I think the danger with a ketogenic diet is in ignoring nutrition. You won't get proper nutrients if you are just eating bacon and steak. I think one must consume large quantities of seafood, offal, non-starchy vegetables/seaweed, bone broth, coconut, mushrooms, etc... to get your daily requirements.

      I was planning some menus and started using FitDay to track my RDAs, it has a good calculator even on the free version. I try to shoot for at least 100% on most nutrients.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
        Great thread! I'm trying to think which article I posted that may have held your interest.

        Then there is The Ketogenic Diet for Health a great site that's devoted to the study of ketosis and science without any real bias. I've "known" the author from previous posts and she is very thorough in science and eliminates bias to the extent any human can IMO.
        Most of this sort of stuff is over my head and I have to wait for someone else to interpret it for me, so this may not even be talking about the same thing, I dunno Does this have any relevance from that link?

        We have seen the claim that any protein you eat in excess of your immediate needs will be turned into glucose by spontaneous gluconeogenesis ¹. (Gluconeogenesis (GNG) is the process by which glucose is made out of protein in the liver and kidneys.) Some people think that because proteincan be turned into glucose, it will, once other needs are taken care of, and that therefore keto dieters should be careful not to eat too much protein.While we believe there are valid reasons for limiting protein intake, experimental evidence does not support this one. In our opinion, it makes sense physiologically for GNG to be a demand-driven rather than supply-driven process, because of the need to keep blood glucose within tight bounds.


        In brief


        • Gluconeogenesis is a slow process and the rate doesn't change much even under a wide range of conditions.
        • The hypothesis that the rate of gluconeogenesis is primarily regulated by the amount of available material, e.g. amino acids, has not been supported by experiment. Having insufficient material available for gluconeogenesis will obviously limit the rate, but in the experiments we reviewed, having excess material did not increase the rate.
        • We haven't found any solid evidence to support the idea that excess protein is turned into glucose.
        • More experiments are needed to confirm that this still holds true in keto dieters.
        And the summary:
        Summary

        In sum, then, there is no evidence that we could find that consuming excess protein will increase glucose production from GNG. On the other hand, there is much suggestive evidence that it does not.
        Further experiments need to be carried out to answer the question completely. In particular, we would like to see a comparison of the rate of GNG in keto-adapted dieters consuming no protein, adequate protein, or a large quantity of protein, with and without dietary fat.
        65lbs gone and counting!!

        Fat 2 Fit - One Woman's Journey

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
          I ran across an interesting formula for figuring your ratios from the work of Dr Jan Kwasniewski author of The Optimal Diet.
          First you figure up your IDEAL weight in KILOS. This is not necessarily the weight you are aiming for but it it your Ultimate HSIS (Hot Stuff In Swimwear) weight.
          HSIS weight in kilos plus/minus 10% = range for protein grams/day
          HSIS weight in kilos divided by 2 = upper end for carb grams/day
          The rest of your diet is fat. HSIS weight in kilos x anywhere from 2 to 3.5 depending on your weight goals (lower to lose, higher to gain)
          Ugh at my size this is only about 1100 calories a day .

          I think I'm actually going to have to have a few days where I actually work out exactly what I eat and get the macros right so I have a better idea of what I'm doing, rather than just winging it. I am pretty certain I eat more than that... (although I guess I can start with the fat a little higher and see what happens?? If I'm cutting down too much I'll get the urge to binge, and I want to avoid entering that cycle if I can).

          Comment


          • It's the sugar grams that count. Look at all the vegetables you can eat on a low carb diet:

            Low-Carb Vegetables: List of Vegetables to Eat When Cutting Carbs

            I ate lots of vegetables yesterday and my carbs were super low and I was stuffed to the gills.

            Go read Paleobird's thread and look at the pictures of her super healthy meals. I guarantee her meals are light-years ahead of most folks and absolutely better than anybody doing the fruit smoothies, chicken and broccoli diet.
            Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

            Comment


            • I hope this thread doesn't turn into yet another tribal pissing match over bragging rights and categorical, one-size-fits-all "solutions". I believe many if not most of us are experienced enough to have gotten over the first heady rush of dietary evangelism, developed a body of personal experience regarding our own patterns (and possibly ruts), and are simply looking for individualized ways to unlock the next step to reaching our goals and attaining better health.

              A 6-week study in which people eating slightly more carbs lose weight slightly faster than their keto counterparts doesn't necessarily tell us much. All this time I've pretty much been an "NLC" posterboy, eating HF while keeping out of frank ketosis...part of the ~75-125 bulk carbs/day crowd, fell naturally into IF, tracked but didn't consciously limit calories (just went by hunger).

              It worked like gangbusters for many 6-week intervals--about ten of them--until at some point early this summer, 115lbs down, everything just stopped, scale and tape measure alike. I've still got plenty of very obvious BF to lose; I'm nothing like Mark or any of the ripped bodybuilders in here.

              I'd like to see a long-term study on stalled people, but I don't think it exists.

              I already tried relaxing the carb restriction (via moderately increased rice, tubers, and fruit) but that has merely increased appetite and gained me back a couple of lbs (nothing major, but disappointing all the same). After reading thru the thread and listening to the Phinney/Moore podcast (thanks to Lewis for posting that link!), I think I'm ready to try a ketogenic regimen for a while. I'm entirely agnostic about it--if it works, great; if not, on to something else.
              6' 2" | Age: 42 | SW: 341 | CW: 198 | GW: 180?

              “Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forwards.”
              ― Søren Kierkegaard

              Comment


              • Originally posted by cantare View Post
                I hope this thread doesn't turn into yet another tribal pissing match over bragging rights and categorical, one-size-fits-all "solutions".
                Heh. Good luck with that one.
                “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

                Owly's Journal

                Comment


                • So, about nutritional Ketosis,

                  A little bit of a background: In the early spring of last year I got to "shopping" on the net for a diet. I was 32 yo and about 40 lbs. overweight, which on my small-ish frame looked almost obese.
                  Within a couple of days I started on Atkins and I suppose I became keto-adapted as I ate no more than 50 grams of carbs daily. Slowly, but surely with some exercise in little over a year with few stumbles and setbacks I lost about 35 lbs and almost reached my ideal weight. Then I found this site and decided to further clean up my diet (I wasn't too bad with artificial sweeteners but still had to cut them all out), ramp up my workouts (a lot) and increase carbs some by adding some fruit and a few starches.

                  I haven't done the keto-stix, but I'd bet I spent most of that year in a state of nutritional Ketosis.
                  For me Ketosis was a wonderful; thing, with one draw back.
                  First the positive:
                  - eating wonderful, tasty foods
                  - sleeping good and waking up rested and energized
                  - losing weight, obviously
                  - clarity of thought and nice feeling of calmness and piece
                  - no colds, ailments or any health problems whatsoever
                  - no nasty BO, and I'm probably forgetting some other benefits

                  The only con for me is that my hair was (and still is a little) shedding like crazy. Had my thyroid tested and it's all normal.
                  I suppose I'd like to go back to VLC in the winter, as there won't be much fresh fruit available, but I'm kind of on the fence.

                  So, any of you VLC peeps have had this problem?

                  Comment


                  • Thank you for starting this thread, Paleobird! I have been stalled for about 3 months and was getting ready to throw in the towel and go back to counting calories. But over the weekend I did some more reading/listening to podcasts, and realized that I probably haven't been consuming enough fat and probably too much protein.

                    I'm only three days in to my "experiment", but I definitely notice a HUGE difference in satiety. Before, I was eating about 3-400 calories of protein-rich breakfast and feeling hungry before 11am. Now, I'm eating a 1/3 Cup of Coconut Cream (Trader Joe's) for breakfast and this holds me until at least 12 or 1pm! Then I have my typical salad+meat for lunch and veggies+meat for dinner and I'm good to go! My carbs have remained in the 75-100g per day range but I've traded some protein for some fat, and so far, I feel a lot better.

                    Obviously still very early and n=1, yada yada, but this is the most encouraged I have felt in ages!
                    "For the great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie—deliberate, contrived, and dishonest—but the myth—persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic ... we enjoy the comfort of opinions without the discomfort of thought."
                    ---John F. Kennedy

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
                      Wow, I feel fantastic. I really did turn the corner. It took about two weeks. It's almost noon and I haven't had my breakfast yet. Just coffee with cream and some bone broth. I feel energetic, laser-focused, strong as an ox and I'm thinking I might go running and have my breakfast after that.

                      Seriously why on earth did I ever listen to all that "eat more potatoes" nonsense?? It totally took away all the amazing stuff I got when I first went down this whole paleo path. And like a frog in a pot of boiling water, I didn't even notice it happening.

                      My only complaint is that I wish I could find a way to be more carb-agnostic and keep this great super-low-carb feeling because a) it's so easy to fall out of this and b) so hard to get back.
                      +1 and X1000 to all of this...

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Leida View Post
                        So, if I add cream (say the Double Cream even) to quark like the Germans do, it should be good? I just prefer quark because I make it myself as opposite to cheese someone else makes?
                        I've never had quark but it sounds interesting.

                        Originally posted by Owly View Post
                        Interestingly, I haven't needed to be full-on keto to stay metabolically flexible, but I don't eat excess carbs either. I think you can avoid becoming sugar dependent if you have a healthy metabolism that can handle carbs without setting off binging or other issues *and* you do not regularly consume carbs beyond what will replenish glycogen stores (so that you don't begin to burn sugar preferentially to clear the excess from circulation). Doing this seems to allow me to use fat as fuel when needed while still eating moderate quantities of carbohydrates.
                        Very true. In a heathy person not looking to lose weight (or control epilepsy) this works fine. I don't want to come a cross as saying that everybody must be in ketosis all the time to be healthy.

                        Originally posted by Lewis View Post
                        Actually, I think I made the same point about modern hunter-gatherers and marginal land here on this board a long time ago and before "archevore" did on his site. But i don't bother with his site any more. I'm surprised you do since you seem a full-blown keto-girl and, AFAIK, he's gone carb-monster. :-)
                        Kurt Harris is a smart guy. And he has always profess to be "agnostic" when it comes to the optimal macros for any one person.

                        Originally posted by sjmc View Post
                        Well yeah I'd agree -- but maybe 30g of carbs wasn't sufficiently low to put them all in ketosis. I mean n=1, right? ; p As I understand it, the general advice for getting into ketosis is <20.
                        Not necessarily. Take your ideal weight in kilos and divide by 2. that is your target carb grams (upper end).

                        Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
                        It lasted only 6 weeks. And I don't see anywhere where it says in the abstract what calories they were required to eat.

                        Also, we've been discussing way more than just how much weight we lose. We've been talking about the energy we feel, the mental acuity we have, the physical stamina for aerobic exercise (and if we haven't said anything like that, let me tell you I just went jogging for the first time in months and felt incredible, absolute unlimited energy, and at noon in the hot sun before I had my breakfast). Or how about the feelings of well-being many of us have, the steady-state mood, the tendency to smile more and feel kinder toward others, less grouchy. Or what about not having any seizures? Or the freedom from cravings and the flexibility to miss a meal unexpectedly and not freak out or white-knuckle through it until we can get to some food. These things are important, too.

                        This is not just about weight loss or who can lose the most weight the fastest. This is about feeling great and if needed, losing weight without suffering.
                        Well said.

                        Originally posted by relaygirl View Post
                        This is how I feel too! Even clearer than before when I went paleo. The energy and freedom from cravings is awesome. It is difficult for me to get enough food and limit the protein though. I am re reading Nora Gedgaudas as well to get more insight.

                        I also can feel my body composition changing. I am definitely retaining more muscle. I am wearing clothes that only fit me at 135 before and I am at 150 and I have a lot more definition than I had. I don't look emaciated like I did when I initially lost most of my weight. I am much warmer as well.
                        Originally posted by oxide View Post
                        I don't quite understand ketosis and don't feel the need to be there.
                        Just tryyyyyy eeeet.

                        Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
                        Stackingplates, you are really very invested in ensuring people don't use a ketogenic diet. However, nobody who does use one is pushing it on you. We are all merely describing how much better it works for us. Do you have an agenda? Because you are starting to remind me of that pro soybean guy in that other thread. Maybe you can keep your scare-mongering to yourself. The silly things you bring up are totally unfounded and I could find you as many articles demonstrating whatever I want as you can find showing whatever the heck you want. You can start by reading the Eating Academy and Protein Power websites if you want to see the stuff I'd link to here. All I can think of is you must have an agenda. Even Mark insists he won't budge on the whole carb curve thing because of all the powerful testimonials he gets day in and day out. Anyway, aren't there some metal plates that need stacking somewhere?
                        Thank you.

                        Originally posted by otzi View Post
                        N=20, 6 weeks, completely different outcome than study posted by Stacking Dishes
                        A Ketogenic Diet Favorably Affects Serum Biomarkers for Cardiovascular Disease in Normal-Weight Men

                        CONCLUSION: Numerous studies now suggest that high-carbohydrate diets can raise TAG levels, create small, dense LDL particles, and reduce HDL cholesterol (i.e., atherogenic dyslipidemia)—a combination along with insulin resistance, that has been termed syndrome X (42,43). Syndrome X is postulated to be resistance to insulin-mediated glucose disposal by muscle (44), 30% of adult males and 10% to 15% of postmenopausal women have this particular syndrome X profile, which is associated with several-fold increase in heart disease risk. Replacing saturated fat with carbohydrate appears to accentuate insulin concentrations and the atherogenic dyslipidemia associated with syndrome X (44,45). The ketogenic diet in this study resulted in favorable responses in fasting TAG, postprandial lipemia, HDL-C, LDL particle size, and insulin levels in healthy normolipidemic men. Although the duration of the diet was short (6 wk), these data suggest that a ketogenic diet does not have an adverse effect on accepted biochemical risk factors for CVD and improves those associated with syndrome X.
                        Yep, there is a study to fit every pre-conception available if you look for it. I am done looking outward. I'm doing N=1 and I feel excellent. That will never be data in a study and I don't care.

                        Originally posted by otzi View Post
                        In all seriousness, though, I think the danger with a ketogenic diet is in ignoring nutrition. You won't get proper nutrients if you are just eating bacon and steak. I think one must consume large quantities of seafood, offal, non-starchy vegetables/seaweed, bone broth, coconut, mushrooms, etc... to get your daily requirements.

                        I was planning some menus and started using FitDay to track my RDAs, it has a good calculator even on the free version. I try to shoot for at least 100% on most nutrients.
                        This is true. Man does not live by sticks of butter alone. I think a lot of the reports of adverse "side effects" that were blamed on keto are actually vitamin and mineral deficiencies. Like the urban legend that will not die about keto making your hair fall out. A deficiency in certain minerals does make your hair fall out. Donm't blame that on the keto, eat some liver. My hair has never felt better.

                        Originally posted by Iron Fireling View Post
                        Ugh at my size this is only about 1100 calories a day .

                        I think I'm actually going to have to have a few days where I actually work out exactly what I eat and get the macros right so I have a better idea of what I'm doing, rather than just winging it. I am pretty certain I eat more than that... (although I guess I can start with the fat a little higher and see what happens?? If I'm cutting down too much I'll get the urge to binge, and I want to avoid entering that cycle if I can).
                        Did you try figuring at the top end of the ranges. Also you may be underestimating your HSIS weight. The formula Dr. Kwasniewski uses fro HSIS is your height in centimeters minus 100 = your HSIS weight in kilos. For me, I think that is a little too high but work the numbers through that way and see what you get.

                        Originally posted by CleoCat View Post
                        The only con for me is that my hair was (and still is a little) shedding like crazy. Had my thyroid tested and it's all normal.
                        I suppose I'd like to go back to VLC in the winter, as there won't be much fresh fruit available, but I'm kind of on the fence.

                        So, any of you VLC peeps have had this problem?
                        See above. Have yourself tested for vitamin and mineral deficiencies. Or just eat some liver.

                        Originally posted by gempdx44 View Post
                        Thank you for starting this thread, Paleobird! I have been stalled for about 3 months and was getting ready to throw in the towel and go back to counting calories. But over the weekend I did some more reading/listening to podcasts, and realized that I probably haven't been consuming enough fat and probably too much protein.

                        I'm only three days in to my "experiment", but I definitely notice a HUGE difference in satiety. Before, I was eating about 3-400 calories of protein-rich breakfast and feeling hungry before 11am. Now, I'm eating a 1/3 Cup of Coconut Cream (Trader Joe's) for breakfast and this holds me until at least 12 or 1pm! Then I have my typical salad+meat for lunch and veggies+meat for dinner and I'm good to go! My carbs have remained in the 75-100g per day range but I've traded some protein for some fat, and so far, I feel a lot better.
                        Obviously still very early and n=1, yada yada, but this is the most encouraged I have felt in ages!
                        Yep. I have come to the same realization. It works when you work it right.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                          Did you try figuring at the top end of the ranges. Also you may be underestimating your HSIS weight. The formula Dr. Kwasniewski uses fro HSIS is your height in centimeters minus 100 = your HSIS weight in kilos. For me, I think that is a little too high but work the numbers through that way and see what you get.
                          Wish I had paid more attention in math class.

                          If I figured it correctly using the inches to centimeters formula.... I come up with 150lbs
                          150g prot -600 calories (which I NEVER hit so I should quit tripping on it)
                          75g carbs - 300 calories (which I hardly ever hit)
                          300g fat - 2700 calories!!!!!!!!! Can that be right??? 3600 calories??!!

                          I usually finish with 1200 - 1500 day.
                          65lbs gone and counting!!

                          Fat 2 Fit - One Woman's Journey

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                            Very true. In a heathy person not looking to lose weight (or control epilepsy) this works fine. I don't want to come a cross as saying that everybody must be in ketosis all the time to be healthy.
                            Or sometimes for a particular subset of us who are very near goal weight. More than a few folks around here have found more success shedding their last few pounds when they added moderate carbs back into their diet. Again, key word is *moderate* and that seems to be the fix more for very active folks than for sedentary ones (and age also appears to be a factor here since I think most are under 40).

                            BTW, I hit my goal this morning, 150 lbs.
                            “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

                            Owly's Journal

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by gopintos View Post
                              Wish I had paid more attention in math class.

                              If I figured it correctly using the inches to centimeters formula.... I come up with 150lbs
                              150g prot -600 calories (which I NEVER hit so I should quit tripping on it)
                              75g carbs - 300 calories (which I hardly ever hit)
                              300g fat - 2700 calories!!!!!!!!! Can that be right??? 3600 calories??!!

                              I usually finish with 1200 - 1500 day.
                              I'm not sure that math is correct. As I understand it, the formula is as follows:

                              Here is a way of calculating your HSIS weight, based on BMI. I'll use a 5'7" woman as an example

                              Start with your ideal BMI. 22.5 is the normal midpoint
                              Multiply by the square of your height in metres to get HSIS weight in kg. Eg 5'7" is 1.7m (multiply height in inches by 0.0254) so that gives 22.5*1.7*1.7=65 kg
                              Multiply by 2.2 to convert to pounds - 65*2.2=143lb
                              At HSIS weight, a woman will have approx 20% body fat and a man approx 13%. Call this number x. Lean body mass is then (1-x/100)*HSIS. So our hot woman will have (1-.2)*143=114lb LBM
                              Target protein should then be this number in g, ie 114g of protein per day

                              /louisa
                              ----------------------------------------
                              F, 48, 5'10"
                              Start Date: 25-06-12 @ 161lbs
                              Goal Reached: 30-09-12 @ 143lb. Now bouncing between 145lb - 149lb. I'd like less bounce and more consistency :-)

                              Started Cross Fit 20.12.12 ---- Can't wait to submit my success story on the 1st anniversary of starting primal.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by gopintos View Post
                                Wish I had paid more attention in math class.

                                If I figured it correctly using the inches to centimeters formula.... I come up with 150lbs
                                150g prot -600 calories (which I NEVER hit so I should quit tripping on it)
                                75g carbs - 300 calories (which I hardly ever hit)
                                300g fat - 2700 calories!!!!!!!!! Can that be right??? 3600 calories??!!

                                I usually finish with 1200 - 1500 day.
                                Wait, wait , wait. Hold the phone. You missed the part about converting it to kilos. 150 lbs is about 68 kilos. 68 is your HSIS number to base the calculations on, not 150.

                                so 34g carbs
                                68g protein +/- 10%
                                fat anywhere from 138 up to 238

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