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EAT MOAR FAT! I'm finally GETTING it.

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  • I just know that I feel better with around 100 g of protein than with around 50 g of protein. Less protein makes me feel unsatisfied, hungry and weak. I also enjoy eating meats more than plain fats. I figure if I feel content, my appetite is in accordance to my caloric needs and I am energetic, I am fine with fat adapted vs ketosis vs... anything. 100 lbs is roughly my LBM, so that's right at the 1 g per lb of LBM. I had experience eating at up to 1.5 to 2.0 g/per LBM before, with no ill consequences.
    My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
    When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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    • Originally posted by adamm View Post
      Eh, what? I've been on a ketogenic diet for well over a year (minus two months where I experienced with slightly higher carbs) as a type 1 diabetic. I lift heavy 5 times a week fasted. Granted my lifting sessions are only around 45 - 55 minutes each, but I lift HEAVY. I have had no problem maintaining that, increasing both strength and muscle mass while on a very low carb diet.

      I mean for me a cheat day is eating meatballs with some of my home made tomato sauce (hey, tomatoes have a fair amount of carbs in 'em) which may take me up to 35 grams of carbs for the whole day.

      But back to my point, I feel great lifting heavy. It might be easier for me as I'm on a 5 day split (chest, back, arms, legs, shoulders) which gives me plenty of time for my muscles to replenish glycogen, but when I'm lifting, I feel great.
      Do you do anything in addition to lifting heavy? I know my partner was able to lift heavy, successfully, while in ketosis. However, that was pretty much all she did and dropped nearly all aerobic activities she used to do. When she was training for something that required an inclusion of aerobic activities/metabolic conditioning, she had to bump up her carbs significantly (she's kind of naturally low carb, the wench).

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      • I am definitely not fat adapted...... I'm doing a mini fast supporting DS who is having general anesthesia @ noon and so hasn't eaten since yesterday evening. I often fast for this amount of time at home and have no problem, but now I am hungry! From what I've been reading on this thread I think I'm eating too much protein. I'm also having intense allergies. At home it seemed as though drinking bone broth was helping with that. I noticed there's a market near by that sells house-made stock, they sell it frozen. I wonder if it would help.
        Life is death. We all take turns. It's sacred to eat during our turn and be eaten when our turn is over. RichMahogany.

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        • Originally posted by unsuperb View Post
          Do you do anything in addition to lifting heavy? I know my partner was able to lift heavy, successfully, while in ketosis. However, that was pretty much all she did and dropped nearly all aerobic activities she used to do. When she was training for something that required an inclusion of aerobic activities/metabolic conditioning, she had to bump up her carbs significantly (she's kind of naturally low carb, the wench).
          In my case, if I do a lot of anaerobic activity I get fatigued pretty easily on a low carb diet, enough that I feel pretty well wiped out. A lot of aerobic activities are really anaerobic ones if you push yourself too hard like I tend to do. But if I do only one anaerobic activity in a day, I recover quickly. If I keep my aerobic ones in a fairly low heart rate I feel fine and can go forever, like the energizer bunny. So for me it's trying to keep my aerobic activities truly aerobic, truly in a fat-for-energy zone, and not pushing so hard that I'm now in the glycogen-for-energy zone.
          Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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          • Do you do anything in addition to lifting heavy? I know my partner was able to lift heavy, successfully, while in ketosis. However, that was pretty much all she did and dropped nearly all aerobic activities she used to do.
            Dropping most aerobic activity is a normal advice when starting to lift heavy seriously for strength, as it hampers recovery and gains. It has nothing to do with what diet you are following. You can be doing standard 50% carbs diet and they will still tell you to drop your 4 runs a week, and do a max of 20 min of SS cardio after lifting and do only low intensity moving slowly to actively recover. Lifting serious weight takes care of the heart health portion anyhow, so cardio becomes a waste of time and only tires you out with no additional benefit.
            My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
            When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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            • Well whatever the ratios are I'm losing and feeling good and not going to do the math or the tracking. I'm happy

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              • Originally posted by Leida View Post
                Dropping most aerobic activity is a normal advice when starting to lift heavy seriously for strength, as it hampers recovery and gains. It has nothing to do with what diet you are following. You can be doing standard 50% carbs diet and they will still tell you to drop your 4 runs a week, and do a max of 20 min of SS cardio after lifting and do only low intensity moving slowly to actively recover. Lifting serious weight takes care of the heart health portion anyhow, so cardio becomes a waste of time and only tires you out with no additional benefit.
                I'm not convinced about your last sentence about taking care of heart health. I don't think those bodybuilders never doing any form of cardio and who don't even walk regularly, are very healthy, and none of them get really old.
                I'm personally placing my bets on kettlebell training, which is intensive but also has a cardio component.

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                • Strength training rather than body building. They are two different approaches, with different rules of engagement and emphasis. When you are strength training lifting maxes, your HR goes through the roof, hence you derive the cardio benefit. A person who strength trains seriously can normally crack out a decent 5-10 K run without training. I did not say *any* cardio activity, did I? I said *most*. Short sessions of steady state (20 min) and plenty of moving slowly for active recovery, when appropriate. Some authors, like Wendler recommends sprints 2x a week. What you avoid is training for both improvement of the strength and cardio at the same time. Most particularly long duration runs (30+ min).

                  Any form of explosive lifting, like KBs or Olympic lifts is great as well for cardio conditioning. But, to derive strength benefit it has to be heavy enough. Underlifting when combined with cardio is a muscle shredding nightmare.
                  Last edited by Leida; 09-14-2012, 12:27 PM.
                  My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                  When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

                  Comment


                  • Fair enough, I agree. Pretty much Primal Blueprint, right? My 24kg kettlebell is certainly heavy enough for now at my beginner level. I recently cycled 10 miles, after not having cycled at all for a few years, and because of my strength training I was going faster (for the distance) than at any other time in my life (never did strength training before).
                    Anyway, don't want to derail this otherwise interesting thread. Regarding fat etc.: I did some ketosis but I'm now experimenting with low carb/high fat on rest days and high carb (potatoes/rice/fruit) / relatively low fat on lifting days (and IF every day). Different ways to peel an onion I guess, we all have different goals and backgrounds so we just have to find something we can do day in day out and be healthy and become strong.

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                    • WOW, PaleoBird. Thank you! Great post, and very helpful to a beginner, such as myself. I'm just now coming out of the "eat primal 'til I bust" newbie mode. It's very timely for me to come across your post!

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                      • Is it possible to confuse desire for carbs and need for salt? Or is that just my unique spin on things?

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                        • Originally posted by Leida View Post
                          Strength training rather than body building. They are two different approaches, with different rules of engagement and emphasis. When you are strength training lifting maxes, your HR goes through the roof, hence you derive the cardio benefit. A person who strength trains seriously can normally crack out a decent 5-10 K run without training. I did not say *any* cardio activity, did I? I said *most*. Short sessions of steady state (20 min) and plenty of moving slowly for active recovery, when appropriate. Some authors, like Wendler recommends sprints 2x a week. What you avoid is training for both improvement of the strength and cardio at the same time. Most particularly long duration runs (30+ min).

                          Any form of explosive lifting, like KBs or Olympic lifts is great as well for cardio conditioning. But, to derive strength benefit it has to be heavy enough. Underlifting when combined with cardio is a muscle shredding nightmare.
                          Great point here, I agree.. I was surprised @ my ability to crank out a "tough mudder" event with no cardio @ ALL.. haven't run or really any form of cardio for years (I lift heavy for 20-25 min in the gym, 3-4 min rest bw sets, 4-7 reps, compound moves).. Felt like my legs & back (from squats & heavy deadlifts) still felt strong & supportive by the end of the race..

                          Lifting light & cranking out cardio can stress the heart.. Lifting heavy & putting your body in "growth & strength" mode may encourage the heart & lungs (muscle) to become more efficient as well..
                          Last edited by abc123; 09-14-2012, 02:19 PM.

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                          • Originally posted by Miss Understood View Post
                            I listened to one podcast where the speaker said protein needs should be similar for everyone no matter what you weigh because it goes more by blood volume than by weight. His recommendation was 90 grams. No doubt other "experts" disagree. I thought I had read on this thread that for a woman of 150-160 pounds we should be at 70-85ish.
                            This was Dr Richard Layman, a man who has a respectable pedigree in protein research. Although he doesnt have much data on ketogenic related diets, ( his carb levels are generally in the PB range of 100-150 ) his findings on protein are worth consideration.
                            His main finding is that for optimal human health an adult requires 3x 30gm protein minimum per day. He consistently stressed that optimum is 3 meals a day with 30gm as an absolute minimum. He states that adults will get by with less, but its not enough to provide for all the necessary functions of protein in the body.
                            "Continue being a man and you will be excellent. Pussy will rain from the sky. " - Legbiter
                            Couldn't resist immortalizing this quote.

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                            • Originally posted by Leida View Post
                              Dropping most aerobic activity is a normal advice when starting to lift heavy seriously for strength, as it hampers recovery and gains. It has nothing to do with what diet you are following. You can be doing standard 50% carbs diet and they will still tell you to drop your 4 runs a week, and do a max of 20 min of SS cardio after lifting and do only low intensity moving slowly to actively recover. Lifting serious weight takes care of the heart health portion anyhow, so cardio becomes a waste of time and only tires you out with no additional benefit.
                              In both cases, she was lifting heavy; however, her end goals were different which did require a change of diet for her in order to support the activity levels she maintained. And when someone states that they lift heavy, I wonder exactly how heavy that is given that LHT in the PB is often synonymous with body weight movements. Overall, I'm just agreeing that ketosis can fully support strength gains *shrugs*

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                              • Ketosis probably doesn't provide much support when you aren't yet adapted to it, though.
                                Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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