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  • Leida, you saw that doing an endurance activity it worked great to rely on fat for energy. But then you saw that you can't lift heavy very well on a ketogenic diet. It's not the right match with the type of energy required and the type you are providing yourself. If you insist on this crazy idea to have a skinny bodybuilder body then you will have to do crazy eating disorder shit to yourself and this is not the place for you.
    Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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    • I am not as familiar with UD 2.0 as you are, but I did read ChocoTaco's thread on it a while back and it sounds MUCH harder than Leangains. Leangains is very easy for me. I just eat plenty of carbs and minimal fat on workout days, then lower carbs and moderate fat on rest days. Simple. UD 2.0 has like 3 different types of workouts and a refeed period that has to be timed to coincide with those workouts. It sounds insane and like it would be very hard to comply with. Just my two cents.
      It does sound simple, but for me that continuous flipping just doesn't work well, because I often cook in batches and have to feed the entire family, and it drove me insane trying to match my swings to the family menus. Low fat proteins are hard to come by. Our stock of meats are all relatively high fat, grass-fed beef, pork, whole chickens, liver and wild salmon. I really don't like to endlessly buy expensive skinned turkey breasts. Or sitting there with my can of tuna and bok-choy soup watching the pork roast crackling disappear. In 100% cases I ended up having some, and here goes low fat day down the drain. Real meats just feel better for you than canned tuna and skinned turkey. Also, the switches between the high carb to low carb gave me endless mood/energy swings and hunger was out of control. If I go low carb consistently, hunger normalizes to the caloric input that keeps me maintaining easily (or even losing if I push it a little). That is one avenue of self-experimentation I am trying to pursue now, is watching the energy and moods on super-low carb. I know it was very steady on the veggies and meats only, when I did normal paleo. I don't think I could ever really nail LG on deficit the way Choco did, and never really lost any fat on it. It just did not work for me.

      Leida, you saw that doing an endurance activity it worked great to rely on fat for energy. But then you saw that you can't lift heavy very well on a ketogenic diet. It's not the right match with the type of energy required and the type you are providing yourself. If you insist on this crazy idea to have a skinny bodybuilder body then you will have to do crazy eating disorder shit to yourself and this is not the place for you.
      Actually, I haven't seen that. Cyclic-Ketonic Diet is supposed to be the shit for the lifting heavy. I failed it before, but I was eating crap on low carb days (PB & liver sausage). I have heard about people lifting wonders in ketosis (and on high carb as well). Primal itself advocates LHT on low carb, Mark's article says it's fine. Lyle does put endurance into ketonic days, and lifting heavy around the carb-up, but normal CKD does not make this distinction. I am not a champion heavy weight lifter. I prefer heavy lifting to endurance lifting because it builds muscle on me, while endurance work does not, but my heavy is not man-quality heavy. I do not gain on my lifts fast, and they are quite modest. So, in the end, I will try to go ketonic, and in all likelihood, I will end up with accidental carb-ups, that are not huge. Unless I cannot shake off the wheight, then I will do UD without the last carb up, and will be smarter about taking breaks between weeks of lifting.

      And, yeah, I've consulted books and the psycho-service. I officially do not have an eating disorder, a body dysmorphic disorder or any other disorder. I have a bit of a body image issues, but I am working on it. Otherwise, I am completely normal and my phsycologist's evaluation was 'if it ain't broken, don't fix it' and he said I was doing the right thing with my Mindfull Eating research and mind work. I am good, no worries.
      Last edited by Leida; 09-13-2012, 06:54 AM.
      My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
      When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
        Leida, you saw that doing an endurance activity it worked great to rely on fat for energy. But then you saw that you can't lift heavy very well on a ketogenic diet. It's not the right match with the type of energy required and the type you are providing yourself. If you insist on this crazy idea to have a skinny bodybuilder body then you will have to do crazy eating disorder shit to yourself and this is not the place for you.
        Eh, what? I've been on a ketogenic diet for well over a year (minus two months where I experienced with slightly higher carbs) as a type 1 diabetic. I lift heavy 5 times a week fasted. Granted my lifting sessions are only around 45 - 55 minutes each, but I lift HEAVY. I have had no problem maintaining that, increasing both strength and muscle mass while on a very low carb diet.

        I mean for me a cheat day is eating meatballs with some of my home made tomato sauce (hey, tomatoes have a fair amount of carbs in 'em) which may take me up to 35 grams of carbs for the whole day.

        But back to my point, I feel great lifting heavy. It might be easier for me as I'm on a 5 day split (chest, back, arms, legs, shoulders) which gives me plenty of time for my muscles to replenish glycogen, but when I'm lifting, I feel great.

        --Me

        EDIT: and sbhikes, seriously, take a chill pill, you are pretty hostile methinks.
        Last edited by adamm; 09-13-2012, 09:29 AM.

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        • Originally posted by lissee View Post
          I've been a bit awol around here the past few days, but wanted to pop in to say that I've enjoyed reading all the links people have been posting. Paleobird & others. Just bought the Art... low Carb Living... book last night and started to read it.

          Interesting how getting adequate Salt plays such a major role when we're doing Ketosis.
          Seems to. And also see:

          The Blog of Michael R. Eades, M.D. » Tips & tricks for starting (or restarting) low-carb Pt II

          However, the anthropological and historical records seem to show that peoples eating lower-carb diets actually use less salt. Start looking around and you can come up with any number of explorers, stranded in regions where people ate little other than meat, making comments such as "I had to do without bread or salt".

          The explorer and anthropologist Vilhjalmur Stefansson notes:

          It may possibly be true that the carnivorous Eskimos in whose language the word salty, mamaitok, is synonymous with with evil-tasting, disliked salt more intensely than those Indians who were partly herbivorous. Nevertheless, it is clear that the salt habit spread more slowly through the New World from the Europeans than the tobacco habit through Europe from the Indians.
          Stefansson - Adventures in Diet

          When the word in your language for salt is synonymous for "evil-tasting" that's a pretty interesting indication of something. Stefansson also relates in My Life with the Eskimo --

          Amazon.com: MY LIFE WITH THE ESKIMO (9781236669339): Vilhjalmar Stefansson: Books

          -- how when he was living among the Eskimo -- Inuit as they (or rather some of them) are known now -- when he didn't want to share food he salted it. They wouldn't touch it then.

          Yeah, they got some sodium through consuming blood and presumably -- as Dr. Phinney says -- sea-ice, but it seems they did not like salt.

          Maybe the need for salt is a temporary need during the switch to VLC? I don't know, but it seems like a possibility.

          Comment


          • I'm in the hospital with DS. DS has a chronic lung condition that was exacerbated by smoke from wild fires in our area. He's doing well; his main complaint is that he doesn't have his gaming computer and the internet in the hospital is lame. I'm still eating fat first and it's been a real help. Last year we were in the hospital for 3 weeks and i found it challenging to stay primal, this time it feels much easier. At this hospital we have a fridge in our room which I've stocked with fat and tasty snacks for DS to help as through any rough patches in the hospital fare, which is surprisingly good. Butter, cream and lemon can make anything better.

            The doctor thinks we may be able to leave by next Tuesday, which would be good. I'm so glad I started eating this way before we came to the hospital. I don't think I'll be losing any weight while I'm here but at least I wont be eating a lot of junk.

            My biggest challenge is sleep, always difficult in the hospital.
            Life is death. We all take turns. It's sacred to eat during our turn and be eaten when our turn is over. RichMahogany.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by adamm View Post
              Eh, what? I've been on a ketogenic diet for well over a year (minus two months where I experienced with slightly higher carbs) as a type 1 diabetic. I lift heavy 5 times a week fasted. Granted my lifting sessions are only around 45 - 55 minutes each, but I lift HEAVY. I have had no problem maintaining that, increasing both strength and muscle mass while on a very low carb diet.

              I mean for me a cheat day is eating meatballs with some of my home made tomato sauce (hey, tomatoes have a fair amount of carbs in 'em) which may take me up to 35 grams of carbs for the whole day.

              But back to my point, I feel great lifting heavy. It might be easier for me as I'm on a 5 day split (chest, back, arms, legs, shoulders) which gives me plenty of time for my muscles to replenish glycogen, but when I'm lifting, I feel great.

              --Me

              EDIT: and sbhikes, seriously, take a chill pill, you are pretty hostile methinks.
              I've been reading Leida long enough. She needs a wake-up call. But yeah, you're right. I shouldn't say anything.
              Last edited by sbhikes; 09-13-2012, 10:29 AM. Reason: Woah, some weird quote appeared in my post
              Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Lewis View Post
                Maybe the need for salt is a temporary need during the switch to VLC? I don't know, but it seems like a possibility.
                thanks for the links Lewis. Very interesting thoughts. And yes, perhaps the switch to VLC does require more salt initially. I do remember the ketosis youtube video that I watched and the Dr. told his group of patients that they needed to drink broth for the first few weeks to help the transition.

                But on the other hand, I remember in the Art of LowCarb Living book that they talked about how our kidneys process salt differently, getting rid of it more quickly and not holding on to salt. That said, since sodium is critical for our bodies to function, it wouldn't make sense for them to not have some sort of mechanism for conserving the salt we eat. Perhaps when we've been in ketosis for a while, we just are efficient at excreting the extra we consume?

                Comment


                • I decided to just go with the whole salad thing. If I feel like having a big huge salad, then that's what I will have. So last night I had a big salad for dinner and felt pretty good in the morning. So I went off to work with just coffee with a modest amount of cream and some bone broth for breakfast. I managed to go all through the entire morning without a real meal and ate a big salad with a can of sardines in oil as "dressing" for lunch. My calories are way lower than previous days and my macros are 80% fat, 7% carbs thus far. I think I'm going to roll with this for a while, gut flora running the show or not. I started this diet hating big salads and now suddenly I like them.
                  Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

                  Comment


                  • The Robb Wolf podcast has a good question today about ketosis and thyroid issues. He associates apparent thyroid issues with ketogenic diets with actual cortisol issues. He suggests that the cortisol issues arise because of loose dietary parameters that lead people to take in too much protein and not enough fat to stay in ketosis, resulting in the release of cortisol to manage the resultant blood sugar changes. He reckons it's the cortisol that creates the thyroid symptoms. It made interesting listening, and was consistent with Phinney and Volek's perspective about being in a low-carb hell if you eat too much protein or too many carbs. From the transcript:

                    "What I see happen for a lot of people is that they start kind of migrating
                    out of a ketogenic ratio of a relatively low protein intake much, much
                    higher than fat intake and they start getting into this middle ground – this
                    no man’s land where they’re eating enough protein to produce glucose in
                    the liver. And then they start running a little bit more off of glucose but this
                    glucose is very transient. They aren’t eating enough fat to consistently
                    stay in ketosis. So they’re not producing enough ketone bodies to run the
                    brain and to run some of the other organs.
                    And so during this kind of in-between land, then starts causing the liver
                    or the body to produce cortisol to release carbohydrates out of the liver.
                    To release glucose out of the liver."

                    Wolf also said that a similar effect can happen if you start a programme like crossfit, because its aim is glycogen depletion - so anaerobic activity also induces the cortisol effect.

                    His answer is more complex than I've said here - it's worth listening to. The transcript has some serious issues with word replacements that are sometimes the exact opposite to what he said, so it's not a good idea to rely on just that. Best to listen as well.

                    It raised another question for me, though - if it can take 2 - 4 weeks to get into deep nutritional ketosis, then doesn't a cyclic ketogenic programme mean that you never really get into a ketogenic state? I hear that it's working for some people, but I think for me it'd be the definition of low carb hell - it takes me a full 7-8 days to get the physiological and psychological effects of ketosis, and even longer to see the results on the scale.
                    Started Feb 18 2011

                    Tried basic primal and almost everything else in pursuit of IBS control, mood stability, and weight loss.

                    Journalling here

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Jac View Post
                      The Robb Wolf podcast has a good question today about ketosis and thyroid issues. He associates apparent thyroid issues with ketogenic diets with actual cortisol issues. He suggests that the cortisol issues arise because of loose dietary parameters that lead people to take in too much protein and not enough fat to stay in ketosis, resulting in the release of cortisol to manage the resultant blood sugar changes. He reckons it's the cortisol that creates the thyroid symptoms. It made interesting listening, and was consistent with Phinney and Volek's perspective about being in a low-carb hell if you eat too much protein or too many carbs. From the transcript:

                      "What I see happen for a lot of people is that they start kind of migrating
                      out of a ketogenic ratio of a relatively low protein intake much, much
                      higher than fat intake and they start getting into this middle ground – this
                      no man’s land where they’re eating enough protein to produce glucose in
                      the liver. And then they start running a little bit more off of glucose but this
                      glucose is very transient. They aren’t eating enough fat to consistently
                      stay in ketosis. So they’re not producing enough ketone bodies to run the
                      brain and to run some of the other organs.
                      And so during this kind of in-between land, then starts causing the liver
                      or the body to produce cortisol to release carbohydrates out of the liver.
                      To release glucose out of the liver."

                      Wolf also said that a similar effect can happen if you start a programme like crossfit, because its aim is glycogen depletion - so anaerobic activity also induces the cortisol effect.

                      His answer is more complex than I've said here - it's worth listening to. The transcript has some serious issues with word replacements that are sometimes the exact opposite to what he said, so it's not a good idea to rely on just that. Best to listen as well.

                      It raised another question for me, though - if it can take 2 - 4 weeks to get into deep nutritional ketosis, then doesn't a cyclic ketogenic programme mean that you never really get into a ketogenic state? I hear that it's working for some people, but I think for me it'd be the definition of low carb hell - it takes me a full 7-8 days to get the physiological and psychological effects of ketosis, and even longer to see the results on the scale.
                      I think this is what Paleobird was referring to in her first post of this thread and I think this is where I was stuck for awhile and felt like something wasn't right. I had cut back on fat a bit and wasn't paying to close of attention to carb or protein intake and was stuck in this in between state. Now that I have upped my fat, lowered my carbs, and moderated my protein I'm feeling right again. It's not hard to do and makes all the difference.

                      Comment


                      • I think the quote that it takes 2-4 weeks to get into ketosis refers only to people who are beginning this change in eating style. If you have always. been a sugar burner, it takes the body awhile to transition to burning fat effectively for primary fuel. Once you become fat adapted, I believe it is no problem to shift in and out of ketosis.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by healthy11 View Post
                          I think this is what Paleobird was referring to in her first post of this thread and I think this is where I was stuck for awhile and felt like something wasn't right. I had cut back on fat a bit and wasn't paying to close of attention to carb or protein intake and was stuck in this in between state. Now that I have upped my fat, lowered my carbs, and moderated my protein I'm feeling right again. It's not hard to do and makes all the difference.
                          Yes, what Robb is calling the "no man's land" is what Dr Attia on the Eating Academy calls "the zone of misery".

                          Originally posted by Miss Understood View Post
                          I think the quote that it takes 2-4 weeks to get into ketosis refers only to people who are beginning this change in eating style. If you have always. been a sugar burner, it takes the body awhile to transition to burning fat effectively for primary fuel. Once you become fat adapted, I believe it is no problem to shift in and out of ketosis.
                          Right again. But it takes a while to become fully adapted. It takes Jac longer to see results right now because she is still working on healing a lot of metabolic damage.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                            . . . it takes a while to become fully adapted. It takes Jac longer to see results right now because she is still working on healing a lot of metabolic damage.
                            Ah-ha, so the 'time to ketosis' is another area that I can hope for healing!! Awesome. I have fond hopes of being able to include sweet potato and seasonal fruit in my life one day. If I live that long
                            Started Feb 18 2011

                            Tried basic primal and almost everything else in pursuit of IBS control, mood stability, and weight loss.

                            Journalling here

                            Comment


                            • After the potato months it still took me 2 full weeks to get back into the zone. I might not be in the zone right now, I'm not sure. It seems kind of hard to keep protein so low.

                              That is interesting about the coritsol and thyroid on a higher protein low carb diet.

                              I feel somewhat conflicted by all this since being fairly muscular I get hungry for meat.
                              Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
                                After the potato months it still took me 2 full weeks to get back into the zone. I might not be in the zone right now, I'm not sure. It seems kind of hard to keep protein so low.

                                That is interesting about the coritsol and thyroid on a higher protein low carb diet.

                                I feel somewhat conflicted by all this since being fairly muscular I get hungry for meat.
                                I think this cortisol link is the key to explaining the zone of misery. If you are sort of eating a keto diet in that you are keeping your carbs realy low but your protein is high enough to knock you out, this is going to be very stressful for your body. You won't have much glucose lying around to burn but you won't be switching over to fat burning either. Sustained elevated cortisol levels are also the problem with over training.

                                I think a lot of the wanting moar meat is not really about biological need but rather the forbidden for so long fruit that is now allowed, even encouraged on Primal. Yippee! I'll have a 24oz porterhouse! Well, I really would have been fine with the 8oz filet.

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