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  • Originally posted by AceRimmer View Post
    Running and biking are not problem as long as I stay around 75-80% max heart rate. But hammering uphills...and feel like powerless miserable slug. Also doing heavy powerclean or squat glycogen depleted sucks . I think this nutritional ketosis works better for people spending most time in aerobic zones aka ultra distance stuff.
    Yes, that is very true. It's not good for people who hammer on the hills and lift heavy weights in the gym. It's ideal for endurance. The mistake people make is thinking that being an athlete means you need more carbs. It depends on what you do. The other mistake is thinking that if you lift heavy or power up hills and VLC doesn't work for you that it is bad for everyone who is an athlete. So pick what works best for you and carry on.
    Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sanas View Post
      So, epigenetically speaking, does "fat-adapted" mean that some genes that are turned off (such as the ones that code for production of lipases) have now become active? It seems to me that that is what might happen. If so, wouldn't it take a while for there to be a majority, or even quite a few, cells that are capable of producing lipases? I don't think existing cells change -- they have die and be replaced by new ones that know how to make lipases. There are a lot of variables here. Mark says it takes about two weeks. I'm wondering if, for some people, it might take a lot longer, such as the frustrated person in this thread.

      http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread65725.html

      I had darkfield blood analysis done once, back in pre-primal days. The guy who did it said I had a lot of fat in my bloodstream and commented "your body doesn't like fat." That kind of blood analysis needs a huge dose of rigorous study, IMHO, but he was commenting on what he saw compared to what he usually saw.

      If you were an ace sugar burner (and I was), and sugar didn't make you fat (and it didn't), maybe it's going to take a lot longer to convert to being a really capable fat burner. Couple of months, maybe?
      Phil Maffetone would describe being fat adapted as building up your red, or slow twitch, muscle fibers as those are the muscle fibers that use fat for energy.
      Phil Maffetone, www.philmaffetone.com - Aerobic?

      Dr. Mike Eades would say that becoming fat adapted means building a whole new set of enzymes in the body, which takes some time.
      The Blog of Michael R. Eades, M.D. Tips & tricks for starting (or restarting) low-carb Pt I

      Gnolls.org has a lot of science to explain things and nowhere did I see that it required any genes to turn on or off.
      The Science Behind The “Low Carb Flu”, and How To Regain Your Metabolic Flexibility - GNOLLS.ORG
      Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
        ... It's ideal for endurance. The mistake people make is thinking that being an athlete means you need more carbs. It depends on what you do ...
        Indeed. And the historical record should have taught us that. Sad that it didn't.



        Look at the fur trade. The voyageurs were walking laden through rough terrain with plenty of weight up (anything up to a couple of hundred pounds, IIRC) -- what the Royal Marines would call "yomping" -- when subsisting on pemmican . How could anyone do that? That's the business of scientists to find out; it's not the business of anyone to try to deny what's well-attested just because it doesn't fit in with some ideology of how we work when the historical record says otherwise.

        Vide Vilhjalmur Stefansson's thoughts:

        http://highsteaks.com/the-fat-of-the...stefansson.pdf

        (Everyone seriously interested in either hunter-gatherers or low-carb diets should read that.)

        That must be explained.

        But anaerobic activity that's sustained for any length of time -- that's a different situation.

        Comment


        • "After just a few days I entered light nutritional ketosis (over 0.5 mmol/L on the meter). But it took a full three weeks to achieve stable optimal ketosis (1.5 – 3 mmol/L) in the mornings."

          Experiment: Optimal Ketosis for Weight Loss and Improved Performance | DietDoctor.com

          "I've been measuring blood ketones for about 6 weeks now. I have also consistently been in the optional range (or over) for about 10 days." ~ from the comments in that thread above.

          Light nutritional ketosis -- I think that's what I've been able to manage so far.

          Comment


          • Thanks, sbhikes! I'll read those links.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Leida View Post
              I can't shake off the weekend gain, despite pretty decent couple of days. Will try to stick to under 1000 calories today (maybe 600-800), hoping that the deficit will be sharp enough to start knocking it off. I really don't understand what's going on. With the carb ups, the weight was always dropping off really fast. I guess overeating fat is far, far more dangerous than overeating the carbs.
              Overeating CALORIES is the problem. Low carb just makes it easier not to do that.

              Originally posted by homunculus View Post
              Just finished The Art and Science of Low Carb Living, I'll read Jan Kwasniewski's Ultimate Diet later, though my polish kind of sucks. Also going to read the Hyperlipid website. Any other recommendations on what I should read? I read pretty fast :P
              Anyway this is a great thread, I'm glad I'm going back to low carb. I was scared away with all the people saying it's bad for the thyroid and makes their hair fall out.
              I felt so good and clear headed during my exams when I did almost zero carb + IF
              Dr. JK's book is available in English under the title "Homo Optimus". Also Dr. Peter Attia at The Eating Academy blog is well worth a read.

              Originally posted by Leida View Post
              The Ultimate Diet 2.0 I am referring to is actually in English by the guy called Lyle McDonald.
              UD2 is dangerous and the most massively unhealthy monstrosity of a diet plan ever invented. Run, very fast and very far away from it.

              Originally posted by Owly View Post
              I definitely found my lifting performance suffered on VLC. It seems great for endurance athletes, but quite a few folks who lift heavy on a regular basis have had a similar experience even after a few months of trying to adapt to long-term ketosis. I've found that eating enough carbs to replenish muscle glycogen but not excessive quantities allows me to have the performance I want and still be able to use fat for fuel when I need it (long hikes for example). Being fat adapted doesn't necessarily mean being in ketosis 24/7. That's where there can be an advantage in being metabolically flexible.
              Exactly. Nobosy is saying that everyone HAS ot be in ketosis. The ability to shift in and out is a survival plus.

              Originally posted by Lewis View Post
              Leida, I don't know there's any solid reason to believe that fat in and of itself is dangerous. But eating under 1000 kcal a day probably is. The odd day eating nothing wouldn't matter, if you got good nutrition and plenty of it most of the time. But I doubt a chronically low intake of food is anything other than counterproductive not to say dangerous.
              I agree with Lewis. Some "Eat Stop Eat" fasting would probably be better for you than chronic under-eating.

              Originally posted by Sanas View Post
              So, epigenetically speaking, does "fat-adapted" mean that some genes that are turned off (such as the ones that code for production of lipases) have now become active? It seems to me that that is what might happen. If so, wouldn't it take a while for there to be a majority, or even quite a few, cells that are capable of producing lipases? I don't think existing cells change -- they have die and be replaced by new ones that know how to make lipases. There are a lot of variables here. Mark says it takes about two weeks. I'm wondering if, for some people, it might take a lot longer, such as the frustrated person in this thread.
              http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread65725.html

              If you were an ace sugar burner (and I was), and sugar didn't make you fat (and it didn't), maybe it's going to take a lot longer to convert to being a really capable fat burner. Couple of months, maybe?
              Yes, the longer the body has been constantly in sugar burning mode, the more it has "forgotten" how to do fat burning. This is going to make the transition harder and longer. The two week period cited by Phinney and Volek is a minimum.

              Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
              Yes, that is very true. It's not good for people who hammer on the hills and lift heavy weights in the gym. It's ideal for endurance. The mistake people make is thinking that being an athlete means you need more carbs. It depends on what you do. The other mistake is thinking that if you lift heavy or power up hills and VLC doesn't work for you that it is bad for everyone who is an athlete. So pick what works best for you and carry on.
              Could not have said it better.

              Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
              Phil Maffetone would describe being fat adapted as building up your red, or slow twitch, muscle fibers as those are the muscle fibers that use fat for energy.
              Phil Maffetone, www.philmaffetone.com - Aerobic?

              Dr. Mike Eades would say that becoming fat adapted means building a whole new set of enzymes in the body, which takes some time.
              The Blog of Michael R. Eades, M.D. Tips & tricks for starting (or restarting) low-carb Pt I

              Gnolls.org has a lot of science to explain things and nowhere did I see that it required any genes to turn on or off.
              The Science Behind The “Low Carb Flu”, and How To Regain Your Metabolic Flexibility - GNOLLS.ORG
              Good links, SB.

              Comment


              • Just checking back in! I've been away, and also had a huge IBS flare that is now slowly resolving. No pain relief needed for just over 24 hours now, and I can get my rings on my fingers . One piece of learning from that is that coconut is a trigger. I'm bummed by that, but also can track where things have gone awry over the last year - whenever I've tried to add exercise to the PB plan, I've also increased my coconut intake, and subsequently the whole precarious health plan has collapsed. It's happened both times I have tried ketosis, too. But when you know better, you do better, right?? This is me, doing better .

                I haven't started tracking serum ketone levels yet - this is day 3 after I used rice to manage some of my symptoms. I'll track again at the weekend when I can expect to start seeing some results. Energy and clarity of thought are coming back now, though.

                Great links and resources in this thread - it's been great going back over the posts!
                Started Feb 18 2011

                Tried basic primal and almost everything else in pursuit of IBS control, mood stability, and weight loss.

                Journalling here

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Jac View Post
                  Just checking back in! I've been away, and also had a huge IBS flare that is now slowly resolving. No pain relief needed for just over 24 hours now, and I can get my rings on my fingers . One piece of learning from that is that coconut is a trigger. I'm bummed by that, but also can track where things have gone awry over the last year - whenever I've tried to add exercise to the PB plan, I've also increased my coconut intake, and subsequently the whole precarious health plan has collapsed. It's happened both times I have tried ketosis, too. But when you know better, you do better, right?? This is me, doing better .

                  I haven't started tracking serum ketone levels yet - this is day 3 after I used rice to manage some of my symptoms. I'll track again at the weekend when I can expect to start seeing some results. Energy and clarity of thought are coming back now, though.

                  Great links and resources in this thread - it's been great going back over the posts!
                  No coconut!! Yikes! Hopefully when you have your gut issues all healed up, then you can re-introduce some of these trigger foods without a problem.

                  Clarity of thought is a good thing. I think I'll have marrow bones for dinner.

                  Comment


                  • This is interesting . . . do you suppose it's true? As I said previously, I'm not sure I believe that "detoxifying" is real. However, I sure have been having a lot of symptoms that are familiar from pre-PB days: achy joints, acne, brain fog, fatigue, nosebleeds.

                    "Before I discovered the paleo diet, I was a zoner and zone diet instructor. Having taught many people how to zone and watched them through the initial few weeks, I also observed nasty transition symptoms in about 20% of people. Yes they switched from high carb to lower carb 30% carbs with calorie reduction, however this is far above the ketogenic threshhold. I.e eating 90 – 150 g carbs day. The symptoms were identical to low carb flu. Barry Sears has a different take on this. He says it is a release of archidonic acid (AA) from fat cells, from a previous high carb + omega 6 diet. This diet leads to a large amount of AA sequestered in fat cells. The sudden release leads to production of the inflammatory eicosanoid hormones which give the following symptoms – headaches, constipation, fatigue, aches and pains and more interestingly an increase in any inflammatory condition the person suffers from. Increased allergies, eczema or asthma flare up or increased joint pain if arthritic etc. Al of these are linked to overproduction of AA derived eicosanoids. There are two ways to reduce it – 1. add more carbs – it stops the fat loss or slows it down, 2. add a high dose of omega 3 which counteracts the inflammatory hormones."

                    From the comments on this thread: The Science Behind The “Low Carb Flu”, and How To Regain Your Metabolic Flexibility - GNOLLS.ORG

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sanas View Post
                      This is interesting . . . do you suppose it's true? As I said previously, I'm not sure I believe that "detoxifying" is real. However, I sure have been having a lot of symptoms that are familiar from pre-PB days: achy joints, acne, brain fog, fatigue, nosebleeds.

                      "Before I discovered the paleo diet, I was a zoner and zone diet instructor. Having taught many people how to zone and watched them through the initial few weeks, I also observed nasty transition symptoms in about 20% of people. Yes they switched from high carb to lower carb 30% carbs with calorie reduction, however this is far above the ketogenic threshhold. I.e eating 90 – 150 g carbs day. The symptoms were identical to low carb flu. Barry Sears has a different take on this. He says it is a release of archidonic acid (AA) from fat cells, from a previous high carb + omega 6 diet. This diet leads to a large amount of AA sequestered in fat cells. The sudden release leads to production of the inflammatory eicosanoid hormones which give the following symptoms – headaches, constipation, fatigue, aches and pains and more interestingly an increase in any inflammatory condition the person suffers from. Increased allergies, eczema or asthma flare up or increased joint pain if arthritic etc. Al of these are linked to overproduction of AA derived eicosanoids. There are two ways to reduce it – 1. add more carbs – it stops the fat loss or slows it down, 2. add a high dose of omega 3 which counteracts the inflammatory hormones."

                      From the comments on this thread: The Science Behind The “Low Carb Flu”, and How To Regain Your Metabolic Flexibility - GNOLLS.ORG
                      I share your skepticism about the whole detox thing. It seems like hearing hoofbeats and thinking zebras instead of horses to me. The low carb flu, as that Gnolls post pointed out is very real. It is a major shift in the way a body functions. That is enough to cause all those symptoms and more. I'm not a biochemist but it really seems unlikely to me that there could be sufficient quantity of a toxic substance stored in your fat being released in a large enough quantity all at once to really make a difference. You don't lose all your fat stores in a week (much as we would like to).

                      ETA: I can see that if a person were *extremely* obese and lost weight *extremely* quickly, the system might be bombarded with too many stored toxins at once. Quelsen, our very own Honey Badger, who has made some monumental progress in very fast bursts has reported these kind of "detox" reactions. But I doubt this is the case for most people just dropping the bit of extra padding around the midsection.
                      Last edited by Paleobird; 09-12-2012, 09:07 PM.

                      Comment


                      • I've been a bit awol around here the past few days, but wanted to pop in to say that I've enjoyed reading all the links people have been posting. Paleobird & others. Just bought the Art... low Carb Living... book last night and started to read it.

                        Interesting how getting adequate Salt plays such a major role when we're doing Ketosis.

                        Anyway, just wanted to say thanks.

                        Comment


                        • UD2 is dangerous and the most massively unhealthy monstrosity of a diet plan ever invented. Run, very fast and very far away from it.
                          I will only do UD2.0 if I stall for > 2 weeks on the current regimen. My biggest concern with it right now is that the stomach stretches during the carb load if I use white potatoes; I can use white rice, the volume is lower, but it makes me super-hungry & I really don't feel like having grains again. I am also not a fan of machine-centric workouts. UD2.0 does work wonders for fat loss. Both Cyclic Ketonic and UD 2. advocate a large carb load after a complete depletion, and it seems to work, as the moderate carb loads seem to do little good. It is effective and far easier than the Lean Gains. Lean Gains is the one that I have nearly impossible to follow in the real world. I have no data yet to compare UD effectiveness to simple ketosis for myself. I hope to accumulate it over the next few weeks. I am opened to trying to stay in ketosis and training, as I do not have the die hard training goal.

                          Ketosis is a true appetite killer. Yesterday I went on the 'field trip' with my work group. We basically rode the bus and did some easy strolling in the mountains, so I thought it would be a great day to do a long fast. I experienced a hard core hunger at 10 am, and had half of my Tibetian tea (tea with 3 tbsp of butter and salt). Almost immediately felt better. Had the rest of the tea in the afternoon, skipped lunch - actually saved it for my husband, and went for a stroll while everyone else was eating. The smells of food and the sight of muffins, donuts and candies did absolutely NOTHING to me. I also chopped my folks' fruit plate after having my supper, including wonderfully smelling apple and gorgeous grapefruit. Salivated a little, but had no problems keeping hands off. Hard time was about hour 19, had to eat a tbsp of coconut oil before driving home. I felt stuffed before going to bed on ~ 1000 calories consumed in a day.

                          This morning the weight finally dropped from >127 to about 126 lbs. However, I feel weak & experienced no recovery from Tuesday lifting. Today I am hoping to hit between 1300 and 1400 calories & pick up more protein than yesterday & go to a steam room after training to help recovery.

                          The biggest challenge for me will be staying ketonic over the weekend. I could never managed that YET. But I will be making salmon, so if I skip fruit and keep veggies to minimum I should be able to stick to at least under 50 g carbs, if not under 30 g carbs. My goal is to keep the weekend gain to 1 lb.

                          Next week I will be taking off training to winterize the garden, so ketosis should work very well with that, since there is no intense exercise load.
                          My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                          When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

                          Comment


                          • Hello... been reading the thread, too, but haven't posted too much about what I have been experiencing. I finally broke through a long stall and am down from 143 to 136. That's in about a month which is crazy for me. When I first started PB I lost 15 lbs. fairly quickly then lost another 5-10 really slowly and stalled forever. Like a lot of us here I started eating "safe starches" ...having smoothies in the morning and getting lazy about having some non-primal treats like non-GMO pop-corn. Now I am feeling great being VLC/high fat and finally losing again, feeling mentally healthier, and having more energy. I don't count anything... I have just cut my protein portions a bit, upped my fat a lot, eat a bit of veggies, and include dairy! I eat twice a day (coffee with half n half or cream in the morning). I was eating way too many veggies and too much meat before and BAS were not helping me lose weight at all. I don't think the BAS is good advice for weight loss... they can be so many calories! I also walk a lot on the weekends... about 15-20 miles split up on Sat/Sun (short dog walks on the week days). I haven't been sprinting or lifting heavy things, though, which I need to incorporate. Anyways, so glad to be back to what works... loving ketosis and loving eating high fat. My body is happy... this is definitely the right way of eating for me and for awhile there I was just thinking something's not right and now I know why!
                            Last edited by healthy11; 09-13-2012, 05:38 AM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Leida View Post
                              It is effective and far easier than the Lean Gains. Lean Gains is the one that I have nearly impossible to follow in the real world.
                              I am not as familiar with UD 2.0 as you are, but I did read ChocoTaco's thread on it a while back and it sounds MUCH harder than Leangains. Leangains is very easy for me. I just eat plenty of carbs and minimal fat on workout days, then lower carbs and moderate fat on rest days. Simple. UD 2.0 has like 3 different types of workouts and a refeed period that has to be timed to coincide with those workouts. It sounds insane and like it would be very hard to comply with. Just my two cents.

                              Back on topic: I think I'm doing pretty good at this ketosis trial. I've been sick the past few days (cold/flu/something) so it was hard to tell how I would have felt otherwise, but today I feel pretty good. I definitely feel... different mentally. Kinda calmer, although that may have just been generally lethargy/weakness from being sick, haha. We'll see.

                              My challenge is still getting enough protein in only 1 or 2 meals. I don't really like eating more often than that. Not sure if this thread on Paleohacks has been linked already, but I found it pretty instructive:
                              How do I get my Ketostixs to Purple? - PaleoHacks.com

                              RobS is following a diet that is more restrictive than probably most of us here are doing or want to do, but he says that it's necessary to split your intake into at least 3 meals in order to avoid too many calories or too much protein at once.
                              Last edited by yodiewan; 09-13-2012, 06:04 AM.

                              Comment


                              • I don't know much about the zone diet, but maybe it didn't get you to focus on the right fats and oils for the tiny amount of fat it does allow in the diet. So maybe the eicosinoid part is real, but it wasn't coming from the body fat but from the dietary fat. I imagine that the zone diet says to consume lots of healthy canola oil and avoid animal fat. I had a lot of joint inflammation and pain before I started consuming animal fat generously.

                                Ugh. Leg cramps this morning. Bone broth time. I am on the fence about the big salads. I had one for dinner last night covered in olive tapenade and chunks of beef (leftover from making bone broth.) I was considering a big salad for my main daytime meal today, covered in a can of sardines.
                                Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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