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  • Hi sbhikes, I am familiar with this idea, that women need to eat more calories.

    I am positive I was eating in excess of 1700 calories ever since July, and the last time I checked my weight (> 1 week ago) I was gaining. I do not want to go on the scale now for a month, and overall I do not want to count calories except to check on macros. I was worried about being that hungry all of a sudden after doing pretty good.

    Today I woke up hungry, but after quark/c.milk at 4:30 am, don't feel any need to eat (it's after 10 am). So, I seemed to have repeated the pattern with needing a high calories/carbs day even if I wanted to avoid it. I just delayed it by 2 days (normally have it on Saturday, got it on Sunday instead). I am guessing it is a matter of habit & carb withdrawal. I will try to avoid carbs next time it hits and just do proteins and fats. And I will not control protein intake closely until I get a hang of not diving into the bluebs every time.

    I would try to make that pate finally for the next weekend with coconut milk instead of cream. Keeping fingers crossed that it helps!

    Eventually I want to be off the 5HTP as well.
    My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
    When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

    Comment


    • [QUOTE=Dotty Byrd;945801]
      Originally posted by OneDeltaTenTango View Post
      As sbhikes notes, you are misinterpreting the use of the Maffetone equation. 180-age is not max heart rate, but the top end of heart rate to stay in an aerobic, fat burning zone. This is not much different than move slowly ala Sisson. Mark defines that as <= 75% of max heart rate.

      No, I wasn't misinterpreting the Maffetone equation. I wouldn't use any heart rate equation because it is all too general and it can be a bit anal. What I was correcting was someone saying your maximum heart rate is 180 - your age.

      Just so no-one gets confused here. No-one said that your Max HR is 180-age. To estimate Maximum HR 220-age is a poor calculation. Karvonen is better, but without taking a maximal stress test, you won't know for sure.

      The max working HR of 180-age is the top end aerobic HR that Maffetone recommends to stay in an aerobic zone that encourages good levels of aerobic adaptation, but where you use fat as the primary fuel source and reduce the risk on stress on your body that can lead to illness and injury.

      Just to re-iterate, the Maffetone formula has no correlation with anyone's maximum achievable heart rate, whether estimated or known through maximal testing.

      It can all get a bit confusing, so I hope this sets the record straight :-)

      Comment


      • Originally posted by tomi View Post
        Got this off the website mentioned above concerning eating low carb/high fat. Thought there could be others who needed a recipe. Note - this is a restaurant sized recipe - so 1/2 or 1/4 the measures. I'm making a couple roasted chickens this week, so I will have some of this simmering on the stove by the end of the week!

        Bone Broth

        2 oz roasted garlic (weight)
        10 oz roasted red onions (weight)
        4.5 gallons water (volume)
        22 oz tomato paste (weight)
        4 oz cilantro with stems
        2 pounds chicken back bones (weight)
        16 oz tomato pulp (weight)*
        6 oz salt (weight) I would use Celtic Sea Salt or other such salt here
        1 oz black pepper (weight)
        1 oz olive oil (volume)

        Roast onions and garlic in olive oil for approximately 15 to 20 minutes.

        Add all ingredients to water, chicken and tomato paste.

        Let simmer over medium fire until cooked.
        Thank you! I have been so busy at work and just catching up on this thread and kept wondering how I can get a recipe!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Leida View Post
          Hi sbhikes, I am familiar with this idea, that women need to eat more calories.

          I am positive I was eating in excess of 1700 calories ever since July, and the last time I checked my weight (> 1 week ago) I was gaining. I do not want to go on the scale now for a month, and overall I do not want to count calories except to check on macros. I was worried about being that hungry all of a sudden after doing pretty good.

          Today I woke up hungry, but after quark/c.milk at 4:30 am, don't feel any need to eat (it's after 10 am). So, I seemed to have repeated the pattern with needing a high calories/carbs day even if I wanted to avoid it. I just delayed it by 2 days (normally have it on Saturday, got it on Sunday instead). I am guessing it is a matter of habit & carb withdrawal. I will try to avoid carbs next time it hits and just do proteins and fats. And I will not control protein intake closely until I get a hang of not diving into the bluebs every time.

          I would try to make that pate finally for the next weekend with coconut milk instead of cream. Keeping fingers crossed that it helps!

          Eventually I want to be off the 5HTP as well.
          Just give yourself permission to eat too many calories during the adaptation process. I'm sure you gain lots of weight on whatever calories you say you do, but you have to cut yourself some slack at first so you can move forward later. I swear to you that any weight gain will not be permanent and any gluttony you think you are expressing during the adaptation process won't be permanent either. And even if you are somehow different and it turns out you can't adapt and can't stop overeating and gain 50lbs in a week, well, you can always go back to what you've been doing.

          If you don't like to drink cream and eat bowls of coconut milk, you don't have to. There are lots of fats to choose from.

          - Pate is good and you can make it with cream, butter and even various fats. I'm going to make it with bone marrow one of these days.
          - Pesto
          - Bacon
          - Fancy oils drizzled on avocados, cheese, salad or vegetables
          - Olives
          - Sundried tomatoes in olive oil
          - Sardines eaten with all the olive oil
          - fatty cheeses
          - bone marrow eaten as-is
          - lard/tallow

          Add any of these oily, fatty things to other foods. You don't have to go to excess, just make everything gourmet and delicious.
          - Salmon with pesto gets raves in my house
          - Top anything with the items above. Mix and match for lettuce wrap meals. Pesto with walnut oil and goat cheese on lettuce wraps was my lunch yesterday.
          - Bacon with all the grease in the spaghetti sauce poured over sauteed zucchini noodles gets raves in my house
          - An egg breakfast casserole chock full of sausage and liberal leftover beef fat got me lots of raves at a potluck. The secret ingredient? "Love" (lard ha ha).

          Gotta get creative! I'm sure Paleobird is way better at this than me. I'm just a rudimentary cook. A baby in the kitchen.
          Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

          Comment


          • Yep, I know, but coconut is the only fatty flavor so far that I don't mind, that and drippings from roasted meats. I have never liked anything olive related (I grew up with unrefined sunflower stuff that you can't get here), I am not a big fan of bacon (and I have my doubts about it being good for you anyway), cream and butter, except certain things cooked with a touch of each. I don't have enough basil to make pesto (plus husband won't have parmigiana in the house), but I make gazpacho with avocado & bazil. I am trying to roast vegetables in drippings, but I can't have carrots and beets and other tubers, and they turn out the best, the rest are just soggy. Overall, I like my veggies steamed or raw much better than smothered in fat. I do like cheeses, and have a bit every day, the organic raw kind (we can get cheddar here).

            I do like sardines, but I am forbidden to eat them in the office, and at home, I would rather eat real meat or fish than canned goods.

            So, yeah, coconut milk and cheeses are my fav fats.
            Last edited by Leida; 09-05-2012, 11:40 AM.
            My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
            When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
              Oh, cute, Lewis. Your elderly Ethiopian friend, Lucy
              Yeah.

              Serious post on this one, though.

              I finally got round to listening to the latest of Jimmy Moore's Ask the Low-carb Experts. This episode would seem to have a bearing on "How much protein for women?" -- or anyone.

              24: All Things Protein (Protein 101) | Dr. Donald Layman | Jimmy Moore Presents: Ask The Low-Carb Experts

              It was noisy, and there were people going in and out, and I should probably listen again. But ... I made him out to say that, while his research team considers a figure of ideal bodymass in kg x 1.4 or 1.5 to give a good working figure, no adult should consume less than 90 grams per day. You can have a little more, if you're very large or very active, but less, they think, is not best.

              They also think that it is important to split your protein evenly. So on three meals (probably best for most people) that would be 30g - 30g - 30g. The reason is that the protein consumption itself, he says, has an anabolic effect. Very active people, he suggests may, however, be fine on just two meals a day, breakfast and dinner, eating 45 g at each -- because their activity itself has an anabolic effect.

              (Of course, 30 g of protein is going to equate to around 4 oz. (113 grams) of meat.)

              Now his reasons were quite interesting. If I didn't mishear -- as I say my listening conditions were less than ideal -- he pointed out that the volume of blood is much the same whatever one's size. And what seems to be important is the signalling and hormonal responses that go on. In particular, it seems to be the concentration of leucine in the blood that is crucial. I made him out to say that unless your protein intake is over the minimum threshold, it won't be used for body-building purposes. That won't get switched on. Instead it will be used for fuel. This is why he recommends sufficient protein, and enough at each and every meal.

              This, he said, is why current practice in the U.S. is bad -- because people take very little protein at breakfast, and not much more at lunch, getting almost all of it in at dinner. That misses two anabolic opportunities.

              Interesting, huh?

              Now I suppose that people have their own favourite macronutrients, and since this guy studies protein, that's probably his.

              But maybe it's possible that people giving very low figures -- Dr. Rosedale or Dr. Kwasniewksi, for example -- have gone too low.

              Maybe calculations based on bodyweight have their uses but nevertheless there is a lower limit even for rather small people.

              And, again, I didn't get to listen to him in peace, and it's obviously a somewhat controversial area in which different opinions prevail. But maybe worth throwing in there?
              Last edited by Lewis; 09-05-2012, 11:53 AM. Reason: spelling

              Comment


              • My N=1 tells me that the bit about only absorbing so much protein per meal is bunk. I often eat only once a day, and add muscle easily. Granted, there a plenty of explanations for this. My body might be building muscle, but not directly from the excess protein. Or the HGH or fasted state is modifying my body in ways that I don't understand yet. But I think the most likely explanation is that, because I eat all my fat and meat together, digestion is slowed enough to fully digest the meat. When I first went paleo I remember pooping whole chunks of steak and puddles of grease. Then I adapted, and I actually break it all down now.

                So spreading out the protein to three meals is not necessary for everyone.
                Crohn's, doing SCD

                Comment


                • I am actually the happiest when I eat at least 100 g protein a day, and I like heaving protein with every meal. These calculations are always so much harder for a female, because they are based off the world of the body builders where 2,000 calories is seen as a large caloric deficit. 90 g protein from the reverse formula Paleobird is looking at would give you a 200 lbs person. Which is great for a muscular 6 feet tall guy.... Though with ~ 1500 calories, it is relatively easy to reconcile 100 g protein and 70% fat intake. It gets tricky at 1300, artificial at 1200, and nearly impossible at 1000 and less.
                  My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                  When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

                  Comment


                  • Hi Leida, I checked your height and ran it on the Dr. JK calculations a few days ago, and also had a quick look at your physical activity in your journal.
                    With a 1.5 multiplier for protein (which would suit your activity) you get an allowance of 90gm per day.
                    Carbs at 30gm, and then fat can go up to 200ish.
                    That gives you a calorie allowance of just under 2300.!

                    Also I'd suggest boosting breakfast with some meat. It might help with that wishy-washy feeling.
                    "Continue being a man and you will be excellent. Pussy will rain from the sky. " - Legbiter
                    Couldn't resist immortalizing this quote.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by PureFunctionalFitness View Post
                      The Big Book Of Endurance by Phil Maffetone is the up to date one, available on the Amazon website
                      Next on my reading list.

                      Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
                      Leida, you sound like you are having carb withdrawl.
                      Exactly. It is a transitional stage. Stay with it and, as the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy says, don't panic.

                      Originally posted by Leida View Post
                      Ye gods, I hope I don't have to do that. I will try eating more coconut oil. If I have to drink cream, I might as well just give up now. But I really miss food.
                      There is also coconut manna, fakes, cream, etc. Good stuff.

                      Originally posted by PureFunctionalFitness View Post
                      The max working HR of 180-age is the top end aerobic HR that Maffetone recommends to stay in an aerobic zone that encourages good levels of aerobic adaptation, but where you use fat as the primary fuel source and reduce the risk on stress on your body that can lead to illness and injury.

                      Just to re-iterate, the Maffetone formula has no correlation with anyone's maximum achievable heart rate, whether estimated or known through maximal testing.

                      It can all get a bit confusing, so I hope this sets the record straight :-)
                      Thank you for that clarification.

                      Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
                      Just give yourself permission to eat too many calories during the adaptation process.

                      - Pate is good and you can make it with cream, butter and even various fats. I'm going to make it with bone marrow one of these days.
                      - Pesto
                      - Bacon
                      - Fancy oils drizzled on avocados, cheese, salad or vegetables
                      - Olives
                      - Sundried tomatoes in olive oil
                      - Sardines eaten with all the olive oil
                      - fatty cheeses
                      - bone marrow eaten as-is
                      - lard/tallow

                      Add any of these oily, fatty things to other foods. You don't have to go to excess, just make everything gourmet and delicious.
                      - Salmon with pesto gets raves in my house
                      - Top anything with the items above. Mix and match for lettuce wrap meals. Pesto with walnut oil and goat cheese on lettuce wraps was my lunch yesterday.
                      - Bacon with all the grease in the spaghetti sauce poured over sauteed zucchini noodles gets raves in my house
                      - An egg breakfast casserole chock full of sausage and liberal leftover beef fat got me lots of raves at a potluck. The secret ingredient? "Love" (lard ha ha).

                      Gotta get creative! I'm sure Paleobird is way better at this than me. I'm just a rudimentary cook. A baby in the kitchen.
                      Thanks, SB. Good list. I would add the Free the Animal Fat Bread to the list (No matter how big a jerk Richard may be, that bread is still amazing.) And don't forget the avocados.

                      Originally posted by Leida View Post
                      Yep, I know, but coconut is the only fatty flavor so far that I don't mind, that and drippings from roasted meats. I have never liked anything olive related (I grew up with unrefined sunflower stuff that you can't get here)
                      I do like sardines, but I am forbidden to eat them in the office, and at home, I would rather eat real meat or fish than canned goods.
                      So, yeah, coconut milk and cheeses are my fav fats.
                      I get sunflower oil and tahini at a middle eastern market. I don't know if that is available where you live.

                      Originally posted by Lewis View Post
                      I finally got round to listening to the latest of Jimmy Moore's Ask the Low-carb Experts. This episode would seem to have a bearing on "How much protein for women?" -- or anyone.

                      24: All Things Protein (Protein 101) | Dr. Donald Layman | Jimmy Moore Presents: Ask The Low-Carb Experts

                      Ideal bodymass in kg x 1.4 or 1.5 to give a good working figure, no adult should consume less than 90 grams per day. You can have a little more, if you're very large or very active, but less, they think, is not best.

                      They also think that it is important to split your protein evenly. So on three meals (probably best for most people) that would be 30g - 30g - 30g. The reason is that the protein consumption itself, he says, has an anabolic effect. Very active people, he suggests may, however, be fine on just two meals a day, breakfast and dinner, eating 45 g at each -- because their activity itself has an anabolic effect.

                      But maybe it's possible that people giving very low figures -- Dr. Rosedale or Dr. Kwasniewksi, for example -- have gone too low.
                      Maybe calculations based on bodyweight have their uses but nevertheless there is a lower limit even for rather small people.
                      But maybe worth throwing in there?
                      That's interesting. We will have to add that to the growing list of experts with formulas. I really think there is something to be said for using the formulas as a starting point but then finding your own "perfect numbers" by the N=1 method.

                      Comment


                      • Heya, thank you. I was looking at PB's calculator which was for the ideal weight, but I guess I did not add the activity modifier for the protein. My activity is not as vigorous as it would appear on paper since I am not a champion material at all, so I don't burn like Phelps, heh. 2,300 would be a touch high unless it is maintenance, lol (~ 1500-1700 is about right to lose weight for me). Anyway, even a CW nutritionist told me once that calculators are good for eye-balling, but knowing thyself is the best!
                        My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                        When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Leida View Post
                          Heya, thank you. I was looking at PB's calculator which was for the ideal weight, but I guess I did not add the activity modifier for the protein. My activity is not as vigorous as it would appear on paper since I am not a champion material at all, so I don't burn like Phelps, heh. 2,300 would be a touch high unless it is maintenance, lol (~ 1500-1700 is about right to lose weight for me). Anyway, even a CW nutritionist told me once that calculators are good for eye-balling, but knowing thyself is the best!
                          Just remember that it is a two step process. Fat adaptation first. THEN calorie restriction while maintaining keto ratios IF you even need to lose weight (which it doesn't seem like you really do to me). In any case, focus on getting adapted first.

                          Comment


                          • I get sunflower oil and tahini at a middle eastern market. I don't know if that is available where you live.
                            We might, I will take a look at the east Indian grocery. Never thought ME as a source for the real sunflower oil. One of my co-workers goes to the Polish Deli to get the 'real' thing, IIRC, but I was under the impression sunflower was no good (since it fell into the category of the dreaded vegetable oils) until Mark's recent article. Luckily, they sell Nutiva coconut oil in my department store & creamed coconut in the international food isle. I bought tahini once, but ended up throwing the jar away after it went rancid. I much prefer sesame oil for flavoring & hubby loves it, but, again, the concern for seed as a source, seeds being toxic and yada-yada-yada....
                            My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                            When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

                            Comment


                            • Thought it might also be of interest in this thread, Study: Not all calories are created equal - CBS News
                              Subjects on a ketogenic diet in this study, burned 360 cal a day more....
                              "Continue being a man and you will be excellent. Pussy will rain from the sky. " - Legbiter
                              Couldn't resist immortalizing this quote.

                              Comment


                              • Thought it might also be of interest in this thread, Study: Not all calories are created equal - CBS News
                                Subjects on a ketogenic diet in this study, burned 360 cal a day more....
                                "Continue being a man and you will be excellent. Pussy will rain from the sky. " - Legbiter
                                Couldn't resist immortalizing this quote.

                                Comment

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