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  • Soy

    Posting this here as a new thread so as not to interrupt the current iodine thread. The soy issue has come up on a couple of posts on that thread between Paleobird and JamesS. JamesS claims to have debunked those who are anti-soy, and if he cares to spend time on this topic, I'm certainly willing to read his take. But first, I'll tell why I don't eat soy. I think my reasons are probably shared by many on this forum.

    I claim no science background and haven't spend endless hours pouring over medical studies. I was inspired to give up grains by reading The Primal Bluepring, MDA website and forum, and my own successes with doing so.

    Soy is a grain and typical of grains is high in Omega 6 fatty acids, which increases the Omega 6 to Omega 3 ratio in the body. Within 2 weeks of following the Primal Blueprint, I was able to completely eliminate my need for asthma medications and have been med-free for 2.5 years. I credit eliminating grains (among other diet changes) and occasional supplementing with fish oil to balance my omega ratio.

    Here's a short paragraph from wikipedia on Omega-6 fatty acids, which backs my thinking: "Modern Western diets typically have ratios of n−6 to n−3 in excess of 10 to 1, some as high as 30 to 1; the average ratio of omega 6 to omega 3 in the Western diet is 15/1–16.7/1.[6] Humans are thought to have evolved with a diet of a 1-to-1 ratio of omega 6 to omega 3 and the optimal ratio is thought to be 4 to 1 or lower.[7][6] A ratio of 2–3/1 omega 6 to omega 3 helped reduce inflammation in patients with rheumatoid arthritis.[6] A ratio of 5/1 had a beneficial effect on patients with asthma but a 10/1 ratio had a negative effect.[6] A ratio of 2.5/1 reduced rectal cell proliferation in patients with colorectal cancer, whereas a ratio of 4/1 had no effect.[6]"

    The other benefit to giving up soy (along with all grains), is that it's an easy means of cutting carbohydrates. Many of us here have also battled weight issues. I'm down 30 pounds from my peak weight just before starting PB. I never ate much soy prior anyway, so it was much easier to eliminate it than it was to give up wheat - yep, I still miss bread and pie.

    That's my reasoning JamesS.

  • #2
    Soy is not a grain. It is a legume.

    Comment


    • #3
      oh gawd

      Comment


      • #4
        Ahahahhahahahaha! A perfect start! So, I've given up grains and legumes.

        Comment


        • #5
          Irregardless of any arguments for or against, the fact of the matter is my body does not tolerate the stuff at all.
          I found out the hard way that eating any type of unfermented soy has the nasty effect of sending me running for the bathroom within 10 minutes of eating... & if im lucky this just involves throwing it up along with everything else in my system (but sometimes my body decides to get rid of it in other ways not funny when you dont realize there was soy in that dip your friend made....)
          Every time I hear the dirty word 'exercise', I wash my mouth out with chocolate.

          http://primaldog.blogspot.co.uk/

          Comment


          • #6
            I would rather eat a big bowl full of gluten than a bowl full of soy. IMO, there is nothing worse in the American diet than soy. Wheat isn't the #1 baddie by a longshot.
            Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

            Comment


            • #7
              soy as "health food" is yet another big scam/sham foisted upon us by big ag. we grow milllions and millions of tons of the stuff and they need to find other ways of using the byproducts. like soymilk. ugh.

              yes, asians have been eating soy for thousands of years, but almost all of it is fermented. i don't touch the stuff.
              As I ate the oysters with their strong taste of the sea and their faint metallic taste that the cold white wine washed away, leaving only the sea taste and the succulent texture, and as I drank their cold liquid from each shell and washed it down with the crisp taste of the wine, I lost the empty feeling and began to be happy and to make plans.

              – Ernest Hemingway

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                I would rather eat a big bowl full of gluten than a bowl full of soy. IMO, there is nothing worse in the American diet than soy. Wheat isn't the #1 baddie by a longshot.
                I'm just not a big fan of soy, but wheat is definitely the #1 baddie for me. I still indulge in bread or pizza on occasion and I'm always sorry for it the next day.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Piscator View Post
                  I'm just not a big fan of soy, but wheat is definitely the #1 baddie for me. I still indulge in bread or pizza on occasion and I'm always sorry for it the next day.
                  Same, but without the indulging (I just turned down some carrot cake that a coworker brought round that I bet would have tasted awesome). Although, we still let the kiddies eat wheat on occasion as a treat.

                  Here's the WAPF take:
                  Confused About Soy?--Soy Dangers Summarized
                  •High levels of phytic acid in soy reduce assimilation of calcium, magnesium, copper, iron and zinc. Phytic acid in soy is not neutralized by ordinary preparation methods such as soaking, sprouting and long, slow cooking. High phytate diets have caused growth problems in children.
                  •Trypsin inhibitors in soy interfere with protein digestion and may cause pancreatic disorders. In test animals soy containing trypsin inhibitors caused stunted growth.
                  •Soy phytoestrogens disrupt endocrine function and have the potential to cause infertility and to promote breast cancer in adult women.
                  •Soy phytoestrogens are potent antithyroid agents that cause hypothyroidism and may cause thyroid cancer. In infants, consumption of soy formula has been linked to autoimmune thyroid disease.
                  •Vitamin B12 analogs in soy are not absorbed and actually increase the body's requirement for B12.
                  •Soy foods increase the body's requirement for vitamin D.
                  •Fragile proteins are denatured during high temperature processing to make soy protein isolate and textured vegetable protein.
                  •Processing of soy protein results in the formation of toxic lysinoalanine and highly carcinogenic nitrosamines.
                  •Free glutamic acid or MSG, a potent neurotoxin, is formed during soy food processing and additional amounts are added to many soy foods.
                  •Soy foods contain high levels of aluminum which is toxic to the nervous system and the kidneys.
                  Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

                  Griff's cholesterol primer
                  5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
                  Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
                  TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
                  bloodorchid is always right

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I think most of the claims made by WAPF are what JamesS would counter. He's alluded to that in the iodine thread. Reading WAPF was what led to me finding MDA - don't remember if there was a link there, but somehow I found MDA. Anyway, I've followed much of what they promote, but I'm looking forward to reading some rebuttal of that data when and if JamesS weighs in.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Dr. Kaayla Daniel Explains Why Soy Is Not Your Friend
                      Primal/Paleo is not for everyone, it's for those who have committed to understand.
                      READ THE BOOK! ...as Robb Wolf says: "Trying to convince people to save their own ass will burn you out."

                      Vegetarians are the enemy of everything good and decent in the human spirit, and an affront to all I stand for -- the pure enjoyment of food.” Anthony Bourdain

                      and yes, calories DO count my little piggies

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Piscator View Post
                        I'm just not a big fan of soy, but wheat is definitely the #1 baddie for me. I still indulge in bread or pizza on occasion and I'm always sorry for it the next day.
                        The fact that you can immediately feel the effects of wheat but can't feel the effects of soy is another reason why soy is worse.
                        Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I will say that wheat is not the #1 baddie for me. It's more like the #1 baddie for whomever decides to stand behind me after I eat it.
                          Durp.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Piscator View Post
                            I think most of the claims made by WAPF are what JamesS would counter. He's alluded to that in the iodine thread. Reading WAPF was what led to me finding MDA - don't remember if there was a link there, but somehow I found MDA. Anyway, I've followed much of what they promote, but I'm looking forward to reading some rebuttal of that data when and if JamesS weighs in.
                            Iodine thread, post 606:
                            http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...d63393-61.html

                            Some of the Links James posted regarding the Mercola Soy Rebuttal

                            I had a bit of a look through, but it was late, I too would like to see more discussion on the Soy topic.
                            For me the main issue is the GM product & pesticide contamination and along with that if it is high enough in phytoestrogens to be considered therapeutic in some cases, then it should be treated as dangerous in others.
                            Also being a legume it goes in the 20% portion of which total legumes comprise less than 5% for me, so there isn't much room for Soy anyway.
                            Last edited by Omni; 08-19-2012, 05:27 PM.
                            "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Piscator View Post
                              Posting this here as a new thread so as not to interrupt the current iodine thread. The soy issue has come up on a couple of posts on that thread between Paleobird and JamesS. JamesS claims to have debunked those who are anti-soy, and if he cares to spend time on this topic, I'm certainly willing to read his take. But first, I'll tell why I don't eat soy. I think my reasons are probably shared by many on this forum.

                              I claim no science background and haven't spend endless hours pouring over medical studies. I was inspired to give up grains by reading The Primal Bluepring, MDA website and forum, and my own successes with doing so.

                              Soy is a grain and typical of grains is high in Omega 6 fatty acids, which increases the Omega 6 to Omega 3 ratio in the body. Within 2 weeks of following the Primal Blueprint, I was able to completely eliminate my need for asthma medications and have been med-free for 2.5 years. I credit eliminating grains (among other diet changes) and occasional supplementing with fish oil to balance my omega ratio.

                              Here's a short paragraph from wikipedia on Omega-6 fatty acids, which backs my thinking: "Modern Western diets typically have ratios of n−6 to n−3 in excess of 10 to 1, some as high as 30 to 1; the average ratio of omega 6 to omega 3 in the Western diet is 15/1–16.7/1.[6] Humans are thought to have evolved with a diet of a 1-to-1 ratio of omega 6 to omega 3 and the optimal ratio is thought to be 4 to 1 or lower.[7][6] A ratio of 2–3/1 omega 6 to omega 3 helped reduce inflammation in patients with rheumatoid arthritis.[6] A ratio of 5/1 had a beneficial effect on patients with asthma but a 10/1 ratio had a negative effect.[6] A ratio of 2.5/1 reduced rectal cell proliferation in patients with colorectal cancer, whereas a ratio of 4/1 had no effect.[6]"

                              The other benefit to giving up soy (along with all grains), is that it's an easy means of cutting carbohydrates. Many of us here have also battled weight issues. I'm down 30 pounds from my peak weight just before starting PB. I never ate much soy prior anyway, so it was much easier to eliminate it than it was to give up wheat - yep, I still miss bread and pie.

                              That's my reasoning JamesS.
                              Seems to me from what I have seen the primal diet is rich in meats. Most meats are rich in the pro-inflammatory omega 6 fatty acid arachidonic acid (AA).

                              And this brings up another point. Omega 6 fatty acids serve useful purposes, and are not all dangerous. For example, AA is a pro-inflammatory omega 6 fatty acid while dihomo gamma linolenic acid (DGLA), derived from linoleic acid, is also an omega 6 fatty with anti-inflammatory properties. Although DGLA can convert in to AA.

                              Another thing that has to be kept in mind is that isolated compounds do not have the same properties as whole foods. Anti-inflammatory DGLA may convert in to inflammatory AA, but these are not the only compounds in soy that play a role in inflammatory responses. Soy also contains anti-inflammatory sterols.

                              You also mentioned that you are supplementing fish oil to balance out your omega 3 to 6 ratio. First of all why would you have to do that in the first place if your diet alone had a proper omega 3 to 6 ratio? Could it be to balance out all the inflammatory omega 6 fatty acids from the meat in your diet? This also brings up the point that humans do not consume one food, we consume a variety of foods. Soy may be high in linoleic acid, but again this can can convert in to both anti-inflammatory and inflammatory compounds. But this would only be an issue if all the person ate was soy. Just like if all someone ate was beef they are going to cause all sorts of problems including heart disease since beef is so high in the inflammatory omega 6 fatty acid AA. Since we eat varied diets though we can consume other compounds that keep the AA acid in check, or the resulting inflammation from AA.

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