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  • #91
    Soy sauce and tamari... I get the real deal fermented stuff. Don't use it often...
    Miso paste... fermented. Don't use it often... but I will ALWAYS use it. ALWAYS! It tastes like comfort and home in a way that I can't even begin to explain... in a way that nothing else does. And I'm a white girl from TN who didn't taste it until I was like 20!
    Tofu- silken has a place in miso soup on occasion if I'm in a restaurant... most of the time I replace it with poached cod fish loin if I'm at home.

    Edamame... yeah, I eat them sometimes, maybe once or twice a year they end up on a plate of mine in a Japanese restaurant... it's a whole food. Not a big deal. They are kind of bland, I don't go out of my way to eat them.

    All other modern processed soy products taste like BUTT... and that's why I don't eat them.
    Soy protein powder tastes like poison. GAG!
    Last edited by cori93437; 08-21-2012, 01:27 PM.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
    ~Friedrich Nietzsche
    And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by cori93437 View Post
      Soy sauce and tamari... I get the real deal fermented stuff. Don't use it often...
      Miso paste... fermented. Don't use it often... but I will ALWAYS use it. ALWAYS! It tastes like comfort and home in a way that I can't even begin to explain... in a way that nothing else does. And I'm a white girl from TN who didn't taste it until I was like 20!
      Yup and yup. I meant the real stuff, re: soy sauce -- not the crap with caramel color in it.

      And miso paste is like anchovy filets. A little bit brings a hit of musky umami that is hard to replace.

      Have you heard of this stuff?

      Doenjang - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

      I get it when I go to Korean restaurants. My god. On meat? So delicious. It makes me sad that it's starting to be made with wheat. Stop ruining things, wheat!
      Steph
      My Primal Meanderings

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      • #93
        Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
        Other than edamame, I don't see how any soy products qualify as whole real foods, what Primal is supposed to be about. Even Mark says he eats some edamame occasionally and now and then has some fermented soy products such as tempeh. I think each person has to make their own judgement call about this. I don't feel anything lacking in a soy free diet personally.

        So, for me, the question really isn't ,"Why not eat soy", it's "Why?" It doesn't give me anything nutritionally that I can't find in a better tasting form, IMO, from animal sources. Why take the risk that it may be carcinogenic for a tofu dog?
        I used to use soy as a cheap nutritious substitute for milk when my goats were temporarily dry. As a comparison, I squeezed a teat of a milking animal, the resulting fluid was immediately available for use. To make soymilk, I had to grind beans, bring to a boil in lots of water, squeeze through cheesecloth, cool. And supplement with B12 shots for what I was missing. Cheese and tofu both took many extra steps, but I'd rather eat fresh French cheese any day than hunks of tasteless soy curd. But as long as I thought I was gaining health benefits for my soy use, I was willing to put up with the drawbacks.I also used a lot of TVP as a meat substitute and extender. No longer. First, one kid showed extreme allergy to soy products. AS the warnings became louder, I started listening. The cautions made sense, then when GMO stuff and Roundup took center stage, I abandoned soy use completely, with the exception of soy sauce in infrequent stirfries. I definitely lean towards my carnivore heritage and away from vegetarianism.
        Last edited by Paysan; 08-21-2012, 01:42 PM.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by onalark View Post

          Have you heard of this stuff?

          Doenjang - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

          I get it when I go to Korean restaurants. My god. On meat? So delicious. It makes me sad that it's starting to be made with wheat. Stop ruining things, wheat!
          Hmm... no, BUT... I will be looking for it next time I'm at the big Oriental Supermarket in Orlando. They cover many Asian cuisines so they should have it.

          Thanks for the tip!
          “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
          ~Friedrich Nietzsche
          And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
            Strike one for soy: It's not Primal.

            It's a legume and, in anything other than the edamame out of the shell form, it's a processed food.

            Strike two for soy: I don't like it. It's gross.

            You had me at strike two...........

            Let's see, I could have a gritty watery milk-like substance or I could drink some raw real milk.
            I could have a grass fed burger or I could have a cardboard replica of one made out of "textured vegetable protein" and who knows what else. I could have a squidgy cheese-like substance that never melts right on my burger or maybe just have some real cheese.
            I could have all meat sausages or I could have a tofu dog. Nuff said.
            I could have a squidgy white flavorless substance known as tofu in my stir-fry or I could have some shrimp and scallops.

            Strike three for soy : Possible potential breast cancer risk

            We can debate about phytoestrogens until the free range cows come home. There are just as many studies saying it's carcinogenic and saying it's preventative against cancer, some poorly done, some scientifically sound, some obvious shills and some independent research, on both sides of the issue. Plus others that say it makes no difference. This puts it firmly in the "We Really Don't Know For Sure Yet" category in my mind.

            Given the above two strikes, it's not Primal and I don't like it anyway, why should I take a risk that maybe the research on the cancer danger side turns out to be true? Anecdotal, I know, but I ate a lot of soy growing up with 70's health freak parents and continued to do so until I got breast cancer at 45. Now I choose to err on the side of caution for my own personal safety.

            So that's three strikes. Soy, you're out of my diet.
            Ahh Paleobird....you had me at Strike Two......

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            • #96
              Oh, but I do agree that you can't really replace real fermented soy sauce and wasabi for sushi. It only takes a bit when you use as much wasabi as I do though . I tried with Worcestershire sauce....not good. Not good at all.

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              • #97
                Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                Ahh Paleobird....you had me at Strike Two......
                That's just cuz you don't have breasts

                Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                Oh, but I do agree that you can't really replace real fermented soy sauce and wasabi for sushi. It only takes a bit when you use as much wasabi as I do though . I tried with Worcestershire sauce....not good. Not good at all.
                Oooh yes. Just enough soy sauce to make the wasabi "dippable"

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by Paysan View Post
                  {snip} First, one kid showed extreme allergy to soy products. {snip}
                  QFT. Kids are constantly being switched off soy formula because it causes all sorts of issues (gastro-intestinal and otherwise).

                  If my hypothetical children can't tolerate it....
                  Steph
                  My Primal Meanderings

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                  • #99
                    I don't think there's anything wrong with soy sauce. You consume so little of it. I don't use it every day and I don't even dip all my sushi in it because I like it mostly just the way it is. So when I have some, I don't worry about it at all. Soy sauce is way different from basing your diet on tofu, tempeh and soy protein phony foods. That reminds me, I once tried soy jerky and was really wierded out how it had the same taste and texture as real jerky. Plus I couldn't stop eating it. Something wrong with that, I say.
                    Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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                    • Still looking around this Soy story, just found a study showing it reduces Testosterone levels in healthy men, although the researchers were pleased with this as a potential marker of reduced prostate cancer risk.
                      European Journal of Clinical Nutrition - Dietary supplements of soya flour lower serum testosterone concentrations and improve markers of oxidative stress in men

                      Experimental design
                      Volunteers were recruited through adverts placed in the hospital, and were accepted only if they were omnivorous, healthy and non-smokers. They were rejected if obese (body mass index (BMI) >30 Kg/m2) or if they had taken any antibiotics or vitamin supplements within the previous month.

                      After baseline assessment volunteers were asked to eat three scones a day (one at 08:00 then at 13:00 and 18:00) in addition to their normal diets for a period of 6 weeks. The scones were made either with wheat flour or soya flour (Nutrisoy flour, ADM Europort, Netherlands). The two scone types were well matched for energy, fat and fibre content (wheat flour scones 1568 kJ, 11.8 g, 3.64 g vs soya flour scones 1625 kJ, 12.6 g, 3.67 g). In those volunteers taking the soya scones the additional daily intake of isoflavones was 120 mg/day (daidzein 75 mg/day and genistein 45 mg/day). After a 6 week washout period the volunteers switched to the alternative scone type for a further 6 weeks (randomized double blind placebo controlled cross-over trial). Four-day dietary records were recorded during weeks 6 and 12 and fasting blood was taken at the end of these periods before 9 am. Volunteers were reviewed weekly to monitor their progress, provide encouragement and check compliance by counting the number of scones they had not eaten.
                      Conclusion
                      We have shown that soya supplements can reduce serum testosterone and improve markers of oxidative stress. Whilst these findings should not be over-interpreted, they provide a putative mechanism by which soya supplements can protect against prostatic disease and atherosclerosis. Further dietary studies with clinical end points are warranted.
                      "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

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                      • Another one, Soy supplement over 5 years increasing incidence of Endometrial Hyperplasia.
                        Endometrial effects of long-term treatment wit... [Fertil Steril. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI

                        CONCLUSION(S):
                        Long-term treatment (up to 5 years) with soy phytoestrogens was associated with an increased occurrence of endometrial hyperplasia. These findings call into question the long-term safety of phytoestrogens with regard to the endometrium.
                        "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

                        Comment


                        • And here's one for the tiny tots on baby Soy.
                          After 10 days supplementing at same Soy rate as baby formula, there was a reduction in intestinal cell proliferation and migration.

                          http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/2449/PDF
                          CONCLUSION
                          In summary, after 10 d of consuming formula supplemented
                          with genistein at the concentration present in soy-based infant
                          formula, piglets displayed inhibited cell proliferation in the
                          jejunal crypts and a tendency for reduced jejunal enterocyte
                          migration. These data provide compelling evidence that
                          genistein is bioactive within the neonatal small intestine at a
                          concentration approximating what would be formed by conversion
                          of the genistin in soy infant formula to genistein by
                          intestinal -glucosidases and lactase phlorizin hydrolase (8).
                          Furthermore, antiproliferative effects within the intestine were
                          observed at circulating concentrations of genistein that were
                          comparable to those reported in human infants who were fed
                          soy infant formula (4). On the basis of these findings, further
                          studies of longer duration using formulas that contain mixtures
                          of isoflavones, as well as other bioactive components in soy
                          formulas (54,55), are warranted as there are potential synergistic
                          and opposing interactions among the various components
                          present in soy infant formulas.
                          "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

                          Comment


                          • The comparison between Zinc & Iron absorption in children using either beef protein or Soy protein, the Phytates were removed so it was just straight protein and both meals were equalised for Zinc & Iron

                            Effect of Beef and Soy Proteins on the Absorption of Non-Heme Iron and Inorganic Zinc in Children
                            From the Discussion
                            ........
                            Iron absorption from the soy meal increased as iron status worsened, but no such effect was seen for the beef meal. The difference in absorption between the soy and beef meals, therefore, became less as iron status worsens. As none of our subjects was iron deficient we cannot say whether this effect continues as iron deficiency becomes apparent.

                            We have shown that non-heme iron and inorganic zinc absorption is lower from low-phytate soy protein based meal than from beef based meal. Clearly, this could be overcome by increasing the iron and zinc content of the soy protein through fortification during the production process. Our results suggest that nonheme iron content of soy based meal would need to be at least double that of the beef meal, and the inorganic zinc content at approximately 50% greater, to overcome the relative inhibitory effect of the soy protein.

                            We conclude that substitution of soy protein for beef protein reduced non-heme iron and zinc absorption. The effect is not explained by different non-heme iron or zinc loads in the different meals, but appears to be specifically related to the protein source. These effects should be one of the factors taken into account when designing diets for children.
                            "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

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                            • And one for those little tiny tots "bun in the oven" who are not fully formed yet,
                              Genistein crossing the placenta may have developmental effects on the foetus.

                              http://download.journals.elsevierhea...0410001177.pdf

                              Our data clearly show that genistein at low, environmentally relevant concentration can transfer across the human placenta at term. Due to the structure activity relationship with 17-b-estradiol a minor fraction of genisteinis recognized by the placental conjugating enzymes and is converted to its glucuronide and or sulphate forms. Hence it may be possible that thefetus of a pregnant mother on high soy diet is constantly exposed to phytoestrogens at the vulnerable window of development. The effects on health and wellbeing of the fetus from such an exposure has yet to be elucidated.
                              Last edited by Omni; 08-21-2012, 11:16 PM.
                              "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by yodiewan View Post
                                James: First, I'd like to say that I appreciate your contributions on this thread.

                                But beef is NOT high in omega 6 fatty acids. Beef tallow is one of the lowest omega-6 fats there is. In 100g of beef fat, there is only 3.1g of total omega-6 fats.

                                Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Fat, beef tallow
                                100g is a very small amount of meat. It is the high consumption of meats like beef that have been linked to inflammatory diseases such as heart disease from arachidonic acid.

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