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  • #76
    Originally posted by Piscator View Post
    I think maybe she was kidding. I'd call soy milk a faux product too.
    So is coconut milk, then, while we're at it...

    I'm not calling you specifically out on hating. I'm sorry if it felt that way. But I just feel somewhat offended by everyone on Primal who hates on it because I bet you many of the people used to like tofu, and now shun it because it's not Primal.

    Freshly made soy milk is so much more superior to Silk, imo. It's like disliking eggs when you've never had a pastured egg. Or limp baby carrots that can be purchased in a package, versus a sweet, organic carrot.
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    • #77
      Originally posted by JamesS View Post
      I have addressed the bogus claims repeated by the Weston Price Foundation (WAPF) a number of times. What people need to realize is that they are funded by the beef and dairy industries and act as spokespeople for WAPF. This is like relying on pharmaceutical drug reps to get valid safety information on drugs sold by the pharmaceutical companies.

      Here are some of the rebuttals I have written in the past: <long list of links to forum thread rants, not sources>
      I really think that leading a pro-soy charge by bashing on the WAPF is weaksauce. This is from their webpage where they display their income and expenses openly for the world to see going back several years. http://www.westonaprice.org/about-th...n/wapf-funding

      "The main sources of support for the Weston A. Price Foundation are the dues and contributions of its members. The Foundation receives no funding from any government agency or food processing corporation. Although many of our members are farmers, the Foundation has no ties with the meat or dairy industry, nor with any organization promoting these industries. The Foundation promotes the production of food by independent farmers and artisans, and not by industry.

      I don't agree with everything the WAPF says, e.g. I don't do sprouted grains, but I think attacking their integrity is un-called for.

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      • #78
        Piscator, back to one of your original questions that was not answered during the many, and very meandering (to say the least), diatribes that have taken place on this thread: apart from the vast quantities of phytoestrogens, there is no nutrient you get from soy that you can't get from some other food or combination of foods in greater quantities. If avoiding grains and legumes has helped you to lose weight and feel healthier, then there is no reason to start consuming soy. Have some bacon and some greens instead.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Piscator View Post
          If you'd care to read the posts, an invitation to discuss aspects beyond carbohydrates was extended in the initial posting and those aspects have been debated for 7 pages now. Seems you're ignorant of that fact.
          I apologize for my personal ignorance towards that. I hope this didn't stop anyone from taking a look at the extremely useful info on my last post. I also should mention that all soy products from the U.S. are genetically modified and heavily sprayed with pesticides. These toxin are found in 99% of the population.
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          • #80
            Originally posted by sakura_girl View Post
            So is coconut milk, then, while we're at it...

            I'm not calling you specifically out on hating. I'm sorry if it felt that way. But I just feel somewhat offended by everyone on Primal who hates on it because I bet you many of the people used to like tofu, and now shun it because it's not Primal.

            Freshly made soy milk is so much more superior to Silk, imo. It's like disliking eggs when you've never had a pastured egg. Or limp baby carrots that can be purchased in a package, versus a sweet, organic carrot.
            I just don't know why you'd take offense to someone's opinion of a food. And you're right about coconut milk being "faux" - the difference is that coconut milk kind of meets the PB nutrition standards - even though it's processed. Tofu is okay, but I see it more as a carrier of the flavors of other foods it's cooked with. Seems kind of bland otherwise. I don't think I've ever tasted soy-milk, but wouldn't bother as I enjoy dairy and it doesn't seem to give me any problems. Real, raw milk is fantastic, in my opinion of course...

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            • #81
              Originally posted by GeoMike View Post
              Have some bacon and some greens instead.
              Oh, that I do!

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              • #82
                Originally posted by BennettC View Post
                I apologize for my personal ignorance towards that. I hope this didn't stop anyone from taking a look at the extremely useful info on my last post. I also should mention that all soy products from the U.S. are genetically modified and heavily sprayed with pesticides. These toxin are found in 99% of the population.
                I'm actually familiar with that data, but wanted to start this thread so that JamesS could counter it. Thanks for your input. I'm definitely in favor of avoiding GM foods.
                Last edited by Piscator; 08-20-2012, 04:39 PM.

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                • #83
                  Double post?? - see below.
                  Last edited by Omni; 08-20-2012, 06:02 PM.
                  "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

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                  • #84
                    I've never liked the taste of Soy milk, Tofu or other Soy products, but that's my taste, even before I started looking at the health issues.
                    On the WAPF conspiracy of collusion with the beef & dairy industry, their entire philosophy is based on wholsome local food sources from farm to consumer and they are opposed to processed foods from large corporations whether they be Soy, Wheat, Beef, Pork or Dairy
                    I had a look at their income yesterday, Gross income was around US$1.7M, that compared to the Soy industry stats where the total 2011 crop value exceeded $35.7 billion.
                    Soy Stats 2012
                    Even if WAPF do have a vested interest in defaming Soy I think the Industry is more than capable of defending itself, it is far easier to fathom a concerted health misinformation campaign from the Soy industry to increase it's sales.
                    As I understand it nearly 1/3 of US arable land is under Soy cultivation and as mentioned it is near enough to 100% GM, which by default means maximum herbicide use.
                    One has to assume that the bulk of the Soy research done over the last 20 years was funded directly or indirectly by the Soy industry and yet with all the money that was poured into research the best they could get was this in 2005
                    Jury Still Out on Soy and Health - Analysis of Nearly 200 Studies Shows Limited Evidence of the Health Benefits of Soy
                    Jury Still Out on Soy and Health
                    and as for FDA recommendations (2011):
                    The FDA has approved a health claim for soy protein that states, “25 grams of soy protein, along with a diet that is low in saturated fat and cholesterol, may help reduce the risk of heart disease.” That is may not will reduce heart disease risk, not really much of an endorsement.
                    Is there an FDA recommendation for daily isoflavone intake?
                    So to get anything from the FDA at all they had to tag it in with the discredited (Ansel Keys) "Lipid Hypothesis" which the FDA has been pushing so long in the face of contrary evidence, they can't see any way to admit they were wrong for the last 40 years.
                    As for the health benefits, as I've said before if the active components in Soy are so concentrated/powerful such that they can change the Hormonal status in the human body, because that is what the health claims are, then Soy should be treated as a medication and not a food and applied appropriately to specific cases not freely administered as infant formula, in school lunches etc. with the aim of 100% population coverage.
                    Everything I have read regarding the action of Phytoestrogens is that they are an approximation of estrogen and in some body tissues act as an agonist & others as an antagonist, so we don't even know exactly what actions they are creating within the body.
                    Soy has been consumed in Asia for a long time, with seemingly minimal health issues, but speaking of Japan as most of the Soy studies seem to centre on the Japanese connection because their life expectancy is better than the US. From what I've read the last few days, their rates of stomach, pancreatic & other cancers are far higher than the US, can this also be attributed to their Soy intake and is it possible that their intake of seafood giving them both higher Omega 3 & Iodine intakes is in some way protective counteracting some of the potential negative impacts of Soy, or is all this irrelevant and it is their lifestyle & culture which gives them greater longevity.
                    Last edited by Omni; 08-20-2012, 05:58 PM.
                    "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Omni View Post
                      Soy has been consumed in Asia for a long time, with seemingly minimal health issues, but speaking of Japan as most of the Soy studies seem to centre on the Japanese connection because their life expectancy is better than the US. From what I've read the last few days, their rates of stomach, pancreatic & other cancers are far higher than the US, can this also be attributed to their Soy intake and is it possible that their intake of seafood giving them both higher Omega 3 & Iodine intakes is in some way protective counteracting some of the potential negative impacts of Soy, or is all this irrelevant and it is their lifestyle & culture which gives them greater longevity.
                      This is a question that no-one can answer. Certainly not modern science. It's 50-100 years away from being able to do so. Please be aware that anyone who tries to answer this, whatever their background, is taking a massive stab in the dark.
                      My Journal: Englishman In Oz, Skinny to Muscle in a Primal Way

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                      • #86
                        Wow that is majorly disturbing that 1/3 of US arable land is cultivated in soy. The utter holocaust of 1/3 of our arable land being completely devoid of any life other than genetically modified soy covered in chemicals is enough to turn me off entirely no matter what weak health reassurances anyone can provide. I can't see how any vegetarian could sit around smugly feeling that they are being so environmentally friendly while participating in such massive destruction. I don't see how anyone with a conscience could defend soy on the basis of liking it.
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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
                          Wow that is majorly disturbing that 1/3 of US arable land is cultivated in soy. The utter holocaust of 1/3 of our arable land being completely devoid of any life other than genetically modified soy covered in chemicals is enough to turn me off entirely no matter what weak health reassurances anyone can provide. I can't see how any vegetarian could sit around smugly feeling that they are being so environmentally friendly while participating in such massive destruction. I don't see how anyone with a conscience could defend soy on the basis of liking it.
                          If it's any consolation the soy crops are probably wondering what the f@!k is going on too.
                          My Journal: Englishman In Oz, Skinny to Muscle in a Primal Way

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Omni View Post
                            On the WAPF conspiracy of collusion with the beef & dairy industry, their entire philosophy is based on wholsome local food sources from farm to consumer and they are opposed to processed foods from large corporations whether they be Soy, Wheat, Beef, Pork or Dairy
                            I had a look at their income yesterday, Gross income was around US$1.7M, that compared to the Soy industry stats where the total 2011 crop value exceeded $35.7 billion.
                            Soy Stats 2012
                            Even if WAPF do have a vested interest in defaming Soy I think the Industry is more than capable of defending itself, it is far easier to fathom a concerted health misinformation campaign from the Soy industry to increase it's sales.
                            As I understand it nearly 1/3 of US arable land is under Soy cultivation and as mentioned it is near enough to 100% GM, which by default means maximum herbicide use.
                            One has to assume that the bulk of the Soy research done over the last 20 years was funded directly or indirectly by the Soy industry and yet with all the money that was poured into research the best they could get was this in 2005
                            Jury Still Out on Soy and Health

                            Everything I have read regarding the action of Phytoestrogens is that they are an approximation of estrogen and in some body tissues act as an agonist & others as an antagonist, so we don't even know exactly what actions they are creating within the body.
                            Very true. The WAPF may not always be right about everything but they are not anybody's paid shills. That's just silly. I wouldn't put it past the soy industry,however, to pay people to go around posting misinformation on the internet. Hmmm. I wonder why a certain poster was SO adamant that we debate the topic of soy and followed me around several threads trying to "call me out" on the subject even though it was totally irrelevant to the topics at hand and then insisted that this thread be created. It seemed like he was just itching for an excuse to whip out his list o' links. Hmmm?

                            Also, as long as the jury is still out and "we don't know" about soy, I'm not taking a chance on something that offers me nothing but tasteless squidginess in return.
                            Last edited by Paleobird; 08-21-2012, 08:17 AM.

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                              The WAPF may not always be right about everything but they are not anybody's paid shills. That's just silly. I wouldn't put it past the soy industry,however, to pay people to go around posting misinformation on the internet.
                              And we have to include the FDA/USDA (with their massive funding) as part of the soy industry promotion.

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                              • #90
                                Soy sauce is still pretty friggin' delicious...as an accent to meat. :3

                                Pretty much everything I was going to say has been said. I don't agree with WAPF 100% and I think they're kind of crazy on some subjects, and I agree they seem to have some sort of epic-level hard-on against soy, but I also don't believe they're being funded by anti-soy lobbyists. If they are, they are spectacularly unsuccessful. If there is an anti-soy lobby, they'd be better off funneling money into places like McDonald's, not an eccentric organization like WAPF. And why the beef and dairy industry would hate on soy when it's primarily used to feed their livestock is beyond me. Sounds like conspiracy-theorist propaganda.

                                In my own n=1 experiment, I feel ditching soy has improved my thyroid and overall health. I ate a LOT of soy when I was a vegan. I also, coincidentally, wound up with elevated cholesterol and had to have my thyroid dose upped. I don't know for certain if these two are related, and it's totally anecdotal, but I'm not exactly missing the stuff anymore.
                                Steph
                                My Primal Meanderings

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