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  • #46
    Originally posted by Piscator View Post
    Okay, Iron Will, while I stated that I cannot pinpoint any one food as a problem, I definitely focused my diet attention on increasing my O3 to O6 ratio and it seems to have been a benefit. If you've read this thread from the beginning, can you give me some indication of your opinion on O3 intake in regards to that last paragraph? What I've done is working, and I'd welcome any further understanding.
    If it came across as I was singling you out by no means was that my intention. I supplement with fish oil myself and recommend them to all my clients. Fish oils are fanstastic! They work on so many systems it's hard to find another product that is so benificial. I was making my comment based on other threads that I have read about people who eat canned sardines etc. believing they are better for you than a fish oil supplement. Personally I take up to 15 grams a day of fish oil.


    • #47
      Originally posted by Iron Will View Post
      Personally I take up to 15 grams a day of fish oil.
      When it comes to fish oil, more is not better


      • #48
        Originally posted by JamesS View Post
        Yes. And apples, onions, garlic, grapes, pomegranates, seaweeds, lettuce, blueberries and every other plant humans consume.

        Again, I totally agree. As where phytoestrogens are 200-400 times weaker than human estrogens, and other mammal estrogens tend to be stronger than human estrogens they should also be mentioned. But xenoestrogens like DDT, dioxins and PCBs that also tend to be found in animal proteins are on average 30,000 to 100,000 times stronger than human estrogens. So which estrogenic compounds should we really be worried about?

        Yes, soy is a common allergen. So are beef, eggs and dairy.

        Soy does not reduce testosterone. That is just another of the debunked myths that refuse to die because people would rather believe something they hear that is negative than to research the facts. Same reason the negative campaign ads work so well. Anyway, here is a study proving it:

        Serum prostate-specific antigen but not test... [Eur J Clin Nutr. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI
        Thanks for the link JamesS. PudMed is awesome. I'll continue my research and I'll still try to find those links to post.


        • #49
          Here's an excerpt from your link.

          "Interest in fish oil supplementation started with observations that the Inuit had almost no heart disease. It was assumed their high intake of marine oils produced this benefit. While this may be true, at least in part, what was overlooked is that the Inuit don’t consume marine oils in isolation. They eat them as part of a whole-food diet that also includes other nutrients which may help prevent the oxidative damage that otherwise occurs with such a high intake of fragile, n-3 PUFA.

          It’s also important to note that there are many other traditional peoples, such as the Masai, the Tokelau, and the Kitavans, that are virtually free of heart disease but do not consume high amounts of marine oils. What these diets all share in common is not a large intake of omega-3 fats, but instead a complete absence of modern, refined foods.

          Eat fish, not fish oil – cod liver oil excepted
          That is why the best approach is to dramatically reduce intake of omega-6 fat, found in industrial seed oils and processed and refined foods, and then eat a nutrient-dense, whole-foods based diet that includes fatty fish, shellfish and organ meats. This mimics our ancestral diet and is the safest and most sane approach to meeting our omega-3 needs – which as Chris Masterjohn points out, are much lower than commonly assumed.

          Some may ask why I continue to recommend fermented cod liver oil (FCLO), in light of everything I’ve shared in this article. There are a few reasons. First, I view FCLO as primarily a source of fat-soluble vitamins (A, D, K2 and E) – not EPA and DHA. Second, in the context of a nutrient-dense diet that excludes industrial seed oils and refined sugar, and is adequate in vitamin B6, biotin, calcium, magnesium and arachidonic acid, the risk of oxidative damage that may occur with 1g/d of cod liver oils is outweighed by the benefits of the fat-soluble vitamins.

          So I still recommend eating fatty fish a couple times per week, and taking cod liver oil daily, presuming your diet is as I described above. What I don’t endorse is taking several grams per day of fish oil, especially for an extended period of time. Unfortunately this advice is becoming more and more common in the nutrition world.

          More is not always better, despite our tendency to believe it is.

          Note: As always, I’m open to discussion and dissenting views. But please don’t link to short-term studies on the efficacy of fish oil, because as I’ve explained in this article, it’s the long-term effects that we’re primarily concerned with. I’d be interested in seeing any studies longer than 2 years showing that 1) fish oil benefits extend beyond reducing arrhythmia in patients with chronic heart failure and patients who have recently survived a heart attack, 2) doses higher than 1g/d produce a larger benefit than doses of 1g/d, and (most importantly) 3) doses of >1g/d or higher do not increase the risk of heart disease or death"

          I'd like to high light the comments made by the doctor about the Inuit and the low levels of heart disease. He also includes the comment "They eat them as part of a whole-food diet that also includes other nutrients..." Whole food diet is the key here. We all should be eating a "whole food" diet. But when comparing the SAD with supplementation vs. "whole food" diet and supplementation the results will be different. The doctor also makes the statement of using fermented cod liver oil because of the fat soluble vitamins (cue the I hate vit A zealots).

          Fish oil is good for you. long term and short term. The only difference is what else you eat with it. Would I recommend a soccer mom who has difficulty walking up 4 flights of stairs 15 grams of fish oil a day? No. Do I recommend taking 15 grams of fish oil every day for eternity? No. Alternating sources and amounts is key to any supplementation, just like exercise programs. Your body will adjust to dosage if you continue the same volume everyday day in day out. Making adjustments of type, supplier, fermented vs non, high O3 vs low and over all volume allows the body to get the best results.
          Last edited by Iron Will; 08-20-2012, 10:30 AM.


          • #50
            I would also like to add that 15 grams sounds like a lot, but what about 3 teaspoons? They're equal. How many people put a teaspoon of sugar in each of their multiple cups of coffee or tea?


            • #51
              I've only skimmed it briefly, not had time to read it properly yet. Just thought I'd paste the link while it was still open in my browser from when I saw it elsewhere earlier.


              • #52
                Originally posted by Omni View Post
                Can you elaborate on this, I thought the primary output of bacterial fibre fermentation in the gut is Short Chain Fatty acids, I could not locate any plant sources of these.
                The flora actually produce short chain and medium chain fatty acids. The medium chain fatty acids are produced by the Saccharomyces yeast that make up part of our flora.

                As far as short chain fatty acids in plants they are actually quite abundant. Coconut oil contains several such as caprylic acid. Chlorella contains butyric, caproic and caprylic acids. Nettle leaf contains formic acid. And alpha linoleic acid is found in numerous plants such as chia, soy, flax, walnuts, pumpkin seeds, etc.

                Originally posted by Omni View Post
                When you refer to Estrogens in beef, are you refering to feedlot cattle?
                My understanding is it is not an issue with grass fed beef.
                That is a myth. Feedlot cattle may have higher levels of estrogen from hormones given to cattle to increase their weight or milk production. What people are forgetting is that the cattle produce their own hormones that are in the tissues and circulating in the blood when the animal is killed. Those hormones do not disappear when the animal is killed. They are still in the tissues and blood of the meats people are consuming.

                Originally posted by Omni View Post
                The other question I have is your repeated references WAPF and their being funded by the Beef & Dairy industries,
                I believe the evidence of this was in my previous links about WAPF. If not I can find the evidence again. This fact was disclosed by WAPF itself.

                Originally posted by Omni View Post
                They do believe Soy is bad, amongst other things.
                Because the biggest competitor to their largest funders, the beef and dairy industries is soy.

                Originally posted by Omni View Post
                Do you actually have any documentation to say they are funded by Beef & Dairy, or is this an assumption because of their opposition to Soy?
                Here is a link discussing their funding:

                Weston A. Price Foundation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                "Current sponsors can be seen at the main page of the Foundation's website. The sponsors include grass-fed meat and wild fish producers, as well as health product companies."

                Interestingly the WAPF states:

                " Although many of our members are farmers, the Foundation has no ties with the meat or dairy industry, nor with any organization promoting these industries."

                Yet, one of their attorneys is fighting for the dairy industry for WAPF:

                Board of Directors

                " Peter Kennedy, Esq. - President
                Pete Kennedy is an attorney in Sarasota, Florida who works on dairy issues for the Weston A. Price Foundation, particularly, the right of farmers to distribute raw milk and raw milk products direct to consumers. He has represented or assisted in the representation of dairy farmers facing possible state enforcement action in Florida, Wisconsin, Ohio, Michigan and Indiana. "

                Sure sounds like a tie to the dairy industry to me. Of course WAPF has been caught lying so many times what's one more lie to them?

                Something else I find really interesting is that they state they are funded in part by "sponsors". Now normally sponsors donate money so their name is made available in some form of advertising by the person or group that receives the money. In fact, let's look at the definition:

                Sponsor (commercial) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                "Sponsorship[1] is a cash and/or in-kind fee paid to a property (typically in sports, arts, entertainment or causes) in return for access to the exploitable commercial potential associated with that property, according to IEG.

                While the sponsoree (property being sponsored) may be nonprofit, unlike philanthropy, sponsorship is done with the expectation of a commercial return."

                Yet, I cannot find anything showing WAPF's sponsors. Why is that? What are they trying to hide? As sponsors their names should at least be plastered all over the WAPF website so their sponsors get some advertising for their money. Could it be that all the money they are receiving from the beef and dairy industries directly or indirectly would prove their major conflicts of interest? And would show why they have fabricated evidence so many times to bash the biggest competitor of their sponsors, which is soy?


                • #53
                  Originally posted by magicmerl View Post
                  How long has unfermented soy been consumed for?
                  Soy does not have to fermented to reduce some of the compounds some people consider dangerous such as phytoestrogens. Many of these compounds are also reduced or eliminated by cooking.


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Jerseyjim View Post
                    Umm, cause they make me gassy
                    That does not make legumes bad for everyone. Beans for example can be soaked in several changes of water to remove the sugar that causes the gas formation.

                    By the way, beef also causes some people to become gassy. So does this make beef dangerous or bad for humans?


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
                      I'm not convinced I should eat soy instead of beef. I ate a lot of soy before and now I don't. I eat a lot of beef now and I look and feel better than ever.
                      Why instead of? People can enjoy both. I do.

                      And soy provides phytic acid that binds heavy metals and dangerous free iron that the beef can provide.


                      • #56
                        A couple more studies showing the ANTI-CANCER properties of phytoestrogens:

                        Phytoestrogens: epidemiology and a possible role in cancer protection.

                        Phytoestrogens: epidemiology and a possible role in cancer protection.

                        J Nutr. 1995 Mar;125(3 Suppl):757S-770S.

                        Soybean phytoestrogen intake and cancer risk.

                        Adlercreutz CH, Goldin BR, Gorbach SL, Höckerstedt KA, Watanabe S, Hämäläinen EK, Markkanen MH, Mäkelä TH, Wähälä KT, Adlercreutz T.


                        Department of Clinical Chemistry, Helsinki University Central Hospital, Finland.
                        Erratum in

                        J Nutr 1995 Jul;125(7):1960.


                        Because many Western diseases are hormone-dependent cancers, we have postulated that the Western diet, compared with a vegetarian or semi-vegetarian diet, may alter hormone production, metabolism or action at the cellular level. Recently, our interest has been focused on the cancer-protective role of some hormone-like diphenolic phytoestrogens of dietary origin, the lignans and isoflavonoids. The precursors of the biologically active compounds originate in soybean products (mainly isoflavonoids but also lignans), as well as whole grain cereals, seeds, probably berries and nuts (mainly lignans). The plant lignan and isoflavonoid glycosides are converted by intestinal bacteria to hormone-like compounds with weak estrogenic and antioxidative activity; they have now been shown to influence not only sex hormone metabolism and biological activity but also intracellular enzymes, protein synthesis, growth factor action, malignant cell proliferation, differentiation and angiogenesis, making them strong candidates for a role as natural cancer protective compounds. Epidemiological investigations support this hypothesis, because the highest levels of these compounds are found in countries or regions with low cancer incidence. This report is a review of results that suggest that the diphenolic isoflavonoids and lignans are natural cancer-protective compounds.


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by JamesS View Post
                          And yes, grass fed beef does have a little better profile but it still very high in omega 6 fatty acids. Primarily arachidonic acid.
                          James: First, I'd like to say that I appreciate your contributions on this thread.

                          But beef is NOT high in omega 6 fatty acids. Beef tallow is one of the lowest omega-6 fats there is. In 100g of beef fat, there is only 3.1g of total omega-6 fats.

                          Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Fat, beef tallow
                          Last edited by yodiewan; 08-20-2012, 10:08 AM.


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by JamesS View Post

                            Soy does not reduce testosterone. That is just another of the debunked myths that refuse to die because people would rather believe something they hear that is negative than to research the facts. Same reason the negative campaign ads work so well. Anyway, here is a study proving it:

                            Serum prostate-specific antigen but not test... [Eur J Clin Nutr. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI

                            Here are a few but still not the ones I was looking for.

                            Effects of replacing meat with soyabean in the die... [Br J Nutr. 2000] - PubMed - NCBI

                            Soy Protein Isolates of Varying Isoflavone Content Exert Minor Effects on Serum Reproductive Hormones in Healthy Young Men

                            Isoflavone-Rich Soy Protein Isolate Suppresses Androgen Receptor Expression without Altering Estrogen Receptor-

                            Soy Protein Isolate Increases Urinary Estrogens and the Ratio of 2:16


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by JamesS View Post
                              First of all you are confusing normal vasodilation with inflammation. So let me start by giving a simple explanation of the process and the difference.

                              When there is trauma to a tissue there is a release of inflammatory prostaglandins. These prostaglandins, which are increased by arachidonic acid, dilate the blood vessels to increase oxygen and nutrients to the injured area to promote healing. So you were partially correct. Although, if there is excess production of inflammatory prostaglandins then we end up with inflammation, which can cause pain and inhibit healing. When there is an excess of prostaglandins the blood vessels over dilate making them permeable and they leak fluids in to the surrounding tissues causing inflammation. Thus the difference. But excess inflammation can decrease circulation and decrease lymphatic function leading to decreased healing.
                              I'm not confusing anything. You're creating a straw man and ignoring my original argument. Arachidonic acid is supposed to be inflammatory - it's integral in the healing process. Of course things in excess is harmful. That is the very definition of "excess." Too much water is inflammatory and leads to death. Same thing goes for sunshine. However, water and sunshine are good in the appropriate quantities. So is arachidonic acid.

                              Originally posted by JamesS View Post
                              It isn't? Maybe you need to look up the pathway for arachidonic acid synthesis. Arachidonic acid is formed in a pathway using linoleic acid as a starter molecule. Linoleic acid is also the precursor for DGLA, an anti-inflammatory for the body. And the precursor for that is GLA, which also has beneficial effects to the body. All these compounds have one thing in common, which is they start out as linoleic acid.
                              Yes, the body can convert linoleic acid to arachidonic acid just like the body can convert ALA into EPA and DHA. However, studies have shown that ALA conversion is poor and inefficient. The same thing stands with LA conversion into AA. Just like it is far better to take in EPA and DHA from fish instead of ALA from nasty sources like flax and chia, it's better to take in AA from chicken, fish and beef than it is to take in LA from nasty things like soy, canola oil, peanuts and oatmeal. LA is not something the body is designed to take in in large quantities, just like ALA. This is reflected in the poor conversion efficiency.

                              Originally posted by JamesS View Post
                              There is no evidence that the human body is not designed to take in plant fats. In fact, our flora produce beneficial fatty acids just like we derive from the metabolism of plant fats.
                              You changed my argument. Your body can handle small amounts of plant-based fats. They are not ideal. The overwhelming majority of your fat intake should come from animal sources. Again, this is reflected by our body's poor and inefficient means of converting ALA to EPA/DHA, LA to AA and the fact that our digestive system more closely resembles that of a carnivore than a herbivore. Make no mistake about it, we can survive on plant matter but we thrive best getting most of our calories from animal sources.

                              Originally posted by JamesS View Post
                              Linoleic acid is not a fat, it is a fatty acid. And there is a difference just like there was a difference between vasodilation and inflamamtion that you also confused earlier.
                              LDL and HDL are lipoproteins, not cholesterol. What's your point? You're creating another straw man.

                              Originally posted by JamesS View Post
                              Secondly, you just got done claiming how beneficial arachidonic acid is. So you are contradicting yourself now since arachidonic acid is generated from linoleic acid as a starter molecule.
                              No, I didn't. You made that assessment somehow. You don't need very much arachidonic acid.

                              Originally posted by JamesS View Post
                              As far as your claim about almost no vitamin E the levels vary from different cultivars:

                              Identification of QTL underlying vitamin E contents in soybean seed among multiple environments
                              According to nutritiondata, 830 calories of raw soybeans have 1.6mg of vitamin E. Meanwhile, 823 calories of almonds have 35.9mg of Vitamin E. I'd say that's significant.

                              Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Nuts, almonds, dry roasted, without salt added [Includes USDA commodity food A255, A263]
                              Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Soybeans, mature seeds, raw

                              Originally posted by JamesS View Post
                              You just got in to it and you are still wrong. Soy protein is digested just like other protein sources. You must be getting all this misinformation from bogus propaganda sites like you linked below.
                              Really? Maybe you're getting all this misinformation from bogus propaganda sites.


                              Please view Page 18.

                              Whey Concentrate: 104
                              Egg: 100
                              Cow's Milk: 91
                              Fish: 83
                              Beef: 80
                              Soy: 59
                              Peanuts: 43

                              That means that the protein in soy is almost half as available as the protein in eggs or whey. And of course, only around 2/3 as effective as animal flesh. And that's without the horrible effects of the phytoestrogens, which would likely make it the biggest junk protein on this list.

                              I'm not going to comment on the rest because, frankly, it's painful to read and I can't make it through. My forehead is too sore from its time spent slammed against my keyboard. If you wish to eat one of the most toxic substances on Earth for some reason, it's a free country. I suggest avoiding human poisons like soy because not only are they unhealthy, but they taste terrible as well. There really is no reason to consume the stuff unless you have to walk-the-walk to sell something. Personally, I'm not interested in buying.
                              Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 08-20-2012, 10:01 AM.
                              Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by JamesS View Post
                                Soy has been a part of the human diet for around 5,000 years. And it has been shown to inhibit breast cancer in real studies. As far as atherosclerosis goes meat has been shown to be a major contributor due to its high level of inflammatory arachidonic acid. On the other hand you keep implying that soy raises estrogen, which reduces heart disease risk so you are contradicting yourself again:

                                Estrogen and Disease | Health Library | Weill Cornell Physicians | Advancing Science. Enhancing Life.

                                The 'limp dick" and "bitch tits" is a joke. I wonder if you drink beer because beer is loaded with phytoestrogens. So if you drink beer you must have a limp dick and and bitch tits according to your hypothesis.
                                Oh my God. Ok, I have to comment on this because this is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. Whoa, other plants contain phytoestrogens? No way! Let's actually talk QUANTITY.


                                Phytoestrogen food sources Phytoestrogen content (μg/100g)
                                Flax seed 379380
                                Soy beans 103920
                                Tofu 27150.1
                                Soy yogurt 10275
                                Sesame seed 8008.1
                                Flax bread 7540
                                Multigrain bread 4798.7
                                Soy milk 2957.2
                                Hummus 993
                                Garlic 603.6
                                Mung bean sprouts 495.1
                                Dried apricots 444.5
                                Alfalfa sprouts 441.4
                                Dried dates 329.5
                                Sunflower seed 216
                                Chestnuts 210.2
                                Olive oil 180.7
                                Almonds 131.1
                                Green bean 105.8
                                Peanuts 34.5
                                Onion 32
                                Blueberry 17.5
                                Coffee, regular 6.3
                                Watermelon 2.9
                                Milk, cow 1.2
                                So, again, let's actually talk quantity. Cow's milk contains phytoestrogens. So do soybeans. Cow's milk contains 1.2μg/100g. Soybeans contain 103,920 μg/100g. Are you serious?

                                Soybeans cause breast cancer. Again, phytoestrogen. You can take epidemiological studies that show whole grains are good for you, but in reality it's the confounding factors that show lifestyle improvements. People who eat whole grains are less likely to smoke, more likely to exercise and more likely to cook their own meals and be dutiful with portion control. It doesn't mean whole wheat is better for you. Actual studies show you get more nutrition out of white bread than whole wheat bread.

                                (summary at) www.

                                These data suggest that vitamin B-6 is 5-10% less available from WHW than from WB6 or W bread and an oral dose of B-6.
                                Epidemiology is crap when we're talking health and nutrition.
                                Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 08-20-2012, 10:17 AM.
                                Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.