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Raw foodism is silly. Here's why...

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  • Lol. Someone should tell my body it can't be active and healthy with a flat stomach at 20%. It seems to be showing evidence of all of the above.
    “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

    Owly's Journal

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    • No, I said, 'normally', and given BF% estimates are off by a huge % point and that an appearance of a particular body part depends on the fat deposition pattern at that point of time (i.e. the same post child-bearing a woman will have more on the stomach so might need lower BF% than a pre-child bearing to flatten it), you can only guesstimate where you are and where you need to be (unless you have been there recently and estimate by the same method). It's the mirror or photographs that tell the truth, independently of the numbers.
      My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
      When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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      • Right, but once we are done with baby making this fat serves no purpose. So, ideally, we should shed it to stop wasting valuable resources on supporting it. It's only sustainable. Now, muscle would serve every kind of purpose as the kid is growing up and needs more care and sustenance to be provided by the hard working mom. I mean, if we have attracted our mate by the show of fertility and reproduced, that the time in our life to get rid of the deposits that supported both purposes and strive for emotional bliss of becoming an ageless fit goddess giving our kids the run for the money and great role model!
        Except that the one child thing is relatively new. Most of the history of humans, you kept needing to have more kids.

        Now, yes, we have evolved and a lot is changing, and we should strive to be fit and healthy. But I think that for most women, the shedding of excess fat and leaning out is executed in a less than healthy manner and we'd be better off accepting larger thighs as OK.... or even emblematic of good health (if they are toned).

        A lack of excess fat is one piece of good health, but when we starve ourselves of nutrients to get there.... we are putting unseen systems under stress. Of all things, since going primal my hair and skin look better- the other outward sign of health. I imagine my insides are also that much better. I met a woman last year- very lean, but man her skin and hair did not look good and it led me to wonder about her actual health. My boss is the same way- enviable bodies - lean, muscular, fit.... but clearly other systems not as healthy.

        When I hear about women getting very lean, I often actually wonder about their nutrition.... it's an awful lot of fat free protein. And then a lot of frankenfoods to keep them happy. I think to have an actual rounded, balanced diet with the right amounts of nutrients most people will not be excessively lean.

        http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
        Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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        • And I won't argue that. I just think that the athletic level of leaness can be achieved with full nutritional load and no damage to health.
          My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
          When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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          • Cooking supposedly makes nutrients more bio-available in some foods, such as tomatoes (lycopene) and carrots (beta-carotene).

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            • Originally posted by Leida View Post
              And I won't argue that. I just think that the athletic level of leaness can be achieved with full nutritional load and no damage to health.
              do you understand that "athletic levels of leanness" are 1-not sustainable and 2-not healthy in the long term? i know/knew a TON of elite high school and college female athletes and more or less none of them were healthy and most of them didn't get a period. achieving a low level of bodyfat and living with it are 2 totally different things.

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              • Originally posted by Leida View Post
                And I won't argue that. I just think that the athletic level of leaness can be achieved with full nutritional load and no damage to health.
                Then why have you not achieved it? And don't say it's because you eat like a pig or some nonsense like that. If you had undamaged health and achieving that athletic level of leanness with full nutritional load and no damage to your health were truly possible, you would be able to make your appetite match your athletic leanness.

                People seem to think that your appetite has something to do with the moral part of your brain. Hunger and satiety are simply hormonal responses. A healthy diet can restore your appetite to health. But health probably doesn't mean looking like a man with boobs and a bikini.
                Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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                • i know/knew a TON of elite high school and college female athletes and more or less none of them were healthy and most of them didn't get a period.
                  And the rates of eating disorders are very high among female athletes. They do more than just ignore a little niggling hunger or skip the ice cream to look that way.

                  And define "athletic level of leanness"- it's going to vary. You go from jockeys and gymnasts to weightlifters. Let's look at men and a football team- every player is an athlete- but you have small, light guys that run fast all the way up to quick guys that are ginormous.

                  I dunno, if god gave you the body of an offensive lineman, you will never look like a jockey. Ever. But you are both athletes.

                  http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                  Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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                  • Originally posted by magnolia1973 View Post
                    And the rates of eating disorders are very high among female athletes. They do more than just ignore a little niggling hunger or skip the ice cream to look that way.

                    And define "athletic level of leanness"- it's going to vary. You go from jockeys and gymnasts to weightlifters. Let's look at men and a football team- every player is an athlete- but you have small, light guys that run fast all the way up to quick guys that are ginormous.

                    I dunno, if god gave you the body of an offensive lineman, you will never look like a jockey. Ever. But you are both athletes.
                    i agree. and i would say my friends ran the gauntlet. some ate like offensive linemen, some probably didn't eat enough. the end result was typically the same. 6-pack abs. a very lean/dry look. these girls were all soccer players, field hockey players, basketball players, lacrosse players, and the occasional ice hockey player.

                    i was simply stating that such a low level of bodyfat, like leida states "the athletic level of leaness can be achieved with full nutritional load and no damage to health" is not sustainable or healthy, no matter how you achieve it.

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                    • Originally posted by Sabine View Post
                      Interesting. I paused the video as it panned and counted items. Where things were piled I assumed that I could see half of the produce and doubled the number, unless she specifically stated a number. If divided evenly across a week, this is what she is eating per day (I rounded, sometimes up, sometimes down):

                      1/2 watermelon(4)
                      1 pint dates(8)
                      7 figs(48)
                      2 zucchini(16)
                      6 apricots(42)
                      9 okra(60)
                      6 oranges(40)
                      22 roma tomatoes(164)
                      1 cucumber (8)
                      1 lemon (10)
                      5 nectarines(36)
                      1/4 avocado (2)
                      1/4 coconut (2)
                      1/2C pecans(4C)
                      1 bunch kale (8)
                      3 1/2 pints berries (24)
                      1 bunch herbs(7)
                      2 1/2 apples (18)
                      2 bunches kale (12)
                      1/4 bunch spinach (2)
                      1/4 bunch romaine (2)
                      1C grapes (6C)
                      1 pint cherry tomatoes (7)

                      If anyone is quick at punching in the numbers, I would be very interested to see what her macros are. (Too fiddly for me to do.)

                      If she's happy with it, and feeling good, that's great. But as she has posted it publicly, and I'm not running into her kitchen to snoop, I feel free to comment.

                      She looks a little too thin to me, especially considering that the camera adds weight. (I couldn't help wondering if all those bracelets were hiding some seriously scrawny wrists.)

                      The two things that struck me the most are:
                      How long does it take to eat all that? Does she have time for anything besides eating? Mercy!
                      What does her blood sugar look like? She has youth on her side now, but what is happening to her insides?

                      Also, I had to laugh when she called the number of bananas she is eating 'very few' (because she is enjoying more of the watery fruits in summer time). Six bananas a day!

                      And, the veg:fruit ratio is 8:12 (leaving out the avocado, coconut, and nuts, which I am assuming she is eating for the fats). And that is just in number of items. By poundage she is consuming at least 6 times the amount of fruit as veg. No wonder she feels great- she's on a sugar high all day long.

                      The spread looks wonderful (who can't appreciate the beauty of nature's bounty) but there's nothing here to make me think being a raw foodist is for me.
                      O.K., honestly, I didn't watch the video, but I my own experience, the only way she could possibly be consuming that much in one day is by juicing or blending (smoothies). She may be part eating and part blending, but she would have virtually NO TIME for anything else in the day if she were to chew all that food. I ate a very similar diet post-cancer diagnosis (versus CW therapies) and that was the only way that I could consume it all in one day. I also didn't eat that much/that kind of fruit. Way to much sugar! It's more of an alkalizing diet for the body but it wasn't something that I could've done longterm.

                      My 58 y/o SIL was a vegitarian must of her life and has tried to transition to eating meat (venision, fish, chicken) but has had a horrible time. She wants everyone to believe that she is sooooo healthy but she is the most emaciated and mal-nurished person I know. She's messed-up her GI system pretty bad and now is dealing with ulcerative colitis. She's so over stressed about food that she makes herself even more sick because of it all.
                      Some people just need a sympathetic pat... On the head... With a hammer.

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                      • I saw another video once... it was a science Documentary of some sort (wouldn't know how to find it now)... and the scientists gave a group of people 2000kcal a day of raw fruit/veg to eat... nothing else.

                        The people had a TERRIBLE time of it.
                        They had to basically eat constantly... they had no juicers, so they had to chew, and chew, and chew.
                        Most of them couldn't make it through their entire lot of food each day.

                        Then the effect on their bowels set in.
                        And they had to run back and forth to the Loo about a hundred times a day in between just sitting an trying to eat and eat and eat.

                        Ummm.... NO!
                        That is not a healthy human diet.
                        “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
                        ~Friedrich Nietzsche
                        And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

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                        • Then why have you not achieved it? And don't say it's because you eat like a pig or some nonsense like that. If you had undamaged health and achieving that athletic level of leanness with full nutritional load and no damage to your health were truly possible, you would be able to make your appetite match your athletic leanness.
                          Because I am unskilled in interpreting emotional hunger (particulary boredom & inability to unwind) and have a high sensitivity to sugar that artificially increases my appetite. I also tried diets in the past year that enhanced binging tendencies. I am learning to cope with both. I rarely truly pig out, but because of being so inapt at recognizing the true reason behind my eating and the mind traps I set for myself I overeat ever so slightly, but quite often. I have just read the book about 5 most common excuses to blow one's eating, and only 2 did not apply to me (don't like/have time cooking and don't have time for eating properly) - yep, 48 out of 50. I've gotta learn how to think and how to eat.

                          I am not saying it is easy, I am saying it can be done.

                          I am aware of the professional athletes having numerous issues. Still, I see wonderfully fit women all around me, with 2, 3 kids apiece, who are not partcipating in either competitive sports, nor in over-eating orgies, nor in the never-ending locomotion. That keeps me hopeful that one day I will find the key to the nutritional and psychological lock that keeps the fat trunk firmly shut. And if I don't, well, I like this puzzle. A negative result is also a result.

                          And define "athletic level of leanness"- it's going to vary. You go from jockeys and gymnasts to weightlifters.
                          Visible, well-defined deltoid and hamstring, flat stomach and no overhang on the outer thigh and inner thigh, no overhang by the knee, no muffin top spill.
                          Last edited by Leida; 08-23-2012, 11:55 AM.
                          My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                          When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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                          • Some women are just naturally very lean....I am 5' 7" and 116 lbs. And that is the highest weight I have ever managed except when I was pregnant, 155 at 9 months pregnant). I do not know my bodyfat % for certain, the very unrealiable online calculator puts me at 12% but I would guesstimate Im at around 15%. I do not nor have I ever had an eating disorder, I have never ever counted calories, I am more aware of what I put in my mouth now than ever, trying to gain. I am very active, I walk, sprint, do yoga and body weight exercises, but not excessively, I give my body plenty of recovery time. I have been this way my whole life, I did have problems getting pregenant and bigger problems staying pregnant and I would guess my leaness probably contributed to that, but I did manage to have two healthy children. People don't realize that being naturally lean has its problems as well, people have always assumed I had an eating disorder, I've had strangers stop me on the street and ask me how much I weigh. It is not fun being called skinny all the time, and sometimes other women just assume Im a bitch because Im thin (the fact that Im also increadibly shy does not help with that)and I would agree that most men find curvier women more attractive. I could never survive on a raw vegan diet, I would whither away. I'm not really sure now what my point was (after all that rambling) except maybe all of us are different, you can never tell a book by its cover.

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                            • Originally posted by Kelmar View Post
                              Some women are just naturally very lean....I am 5' 7" and 116 lbs. And that is the highest weight I have ever managed except when I was pregnant, 155 at 9 months pregnant). I do not know my bodyfat % for certain, the very unrealiable online calculator puts me at 12% but I would guesstimate Im at around 15%. I do not nor have I ever had an eating disorder, I have never ever counted calories, I am more aware of what I put in my mouth now than ever, trying to gain. I am very active, I walk, sprint, do yoga and body weight exercises, but not excessively, I give my body plenty of recovery time. I have been this way my whole life, I did have problems getting pregenant and bigger problems staying pregnant and I would guess my leaness probably contributed to that, but I did manage to have two healthy children. People don't realize that being naturally lean has its problems as well, people have always assumed I had an eating disorder, I've had strangers stop me on the street and ask me how much I weigh. It is not fun being called skinny all the time, and sometimes other women just assume Im a bitch because Im thin (the fact that Im also increadibly shy does not help with that)and I would agree that most men find curvier women more attractive. I could never survive on a raw vegan diet, I would whither away. I'm not really sure now what my point was (after all that rambling) except maybe all of us are different, you can never tell a book by its cover.
                              A beautiful response to everything going on in this thread! I myself am not naturally skinny (always been muscular), but sympathize with thin women that have to put up with other peoples' crap, as you have illustrated.

                              Oh and I love your signature too--glad to know you take such good care of yourself. Bravo for you
                              "The mountains are calling and I must go."
                              --John Muir


                              "I don't know what's wrong with me, but I love this shit."
                              --Tommy Caldwell


                              ‎"Think like a geek. Eat like a hunter. Train like a fighter. Look like a model. Live beyond."
                              --Hyperlithic

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