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Oh, no. Health Care passes. Glad I'm Primal.

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  • #76
    1



    @StoneAgeQueen


    I dont want to get into this argument. American health care is crap. CRAP...but how many Nobel prizes in medicine have been awarded to Americans in the past 20years? With our greed comes research. Either way, I do not doubt you good experiences, and I just want you to not doubt that many people who are actually sick in the UK have have very unfortunate experiences. At this point I am sure you are attributing this to my American ignorance but I want nothing more than to find a system that works, and I think many countries in Europe and Asia have found them. I just do not believe the UK has.

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    • #77
      1



      Who's arguing? I wasn't.

      I think most systems are flawed actually. The only healthcare that I would support wholeheartedly would be the one that makes people take responsibility for their own health, and that advocates natural cures and a primal diet. I think most research is bollocks that is contaminated by the researchers own financial interests. I mean scientists learn how to get three different results from one set of data. I've seen miracles happen from natural cures and dietary changes, but the big pharma don't ever want that to happen because it means no profit from them. Unfortunately both the UK and US systems have close ties to those industries. I really didn't mean to offend you, but the NHS isn't as bad as you made it out to be.

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      • #78
        1



        @StoneAgeQueen- I am not offended, and I don't mean to imply the NHS is "bad"...it just isnt the solution I want for the people I care for. Again, there are some great universal systems, and I hope we can emulate them some day soon.

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        • #79
          1



          As long as we're having the Europe vs. America debate, can I also be the first to point out that cigarette taxes are a lot higher in the UK than they are in the US?

          Subduction leads to orogeny

          My blog that I don't update as often as I should: http://primalclimber.blogspot.com/

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          • #80
            1



            I am a consumer of both US and Canadian medical care. In the US, it is a nightmare of paperwork and bills and arguing, even though I have what is considered "very good healthcare" through my employer. Even though I pay about $1200 per year, I have all kinds of minimums and copays and deductible, all of which go UP every year.


            I am fortunately very healthy.


            In Ontario, I went to my doctor every year, and flashed my medical care card. NO PAPERWORK. That alone was worth it. My doctors were first rate. My care was amazing.


            What Canada does NOT have is millionaire doctors or a lawsuit happy population, which keeps prices down. Canadians also live longer.


            I also am never subject to pathetic pleas for money to help some poor kid who needs an operation because the family can't afford it. It is appalling that people have to beg for this. That is it a matter of personal choice to help a sick child.


            Not everything is a matter of choice, and no, one does not just get to choose what they consider moral based on their pocketbook.


            This business about the healthcare bill being "immoral" or "saving money" for random accidents is absurd when hospital charges can bankrupt people for life.


            Can you really save enough for cancer? And you can eat primal, etc. etc. all you want: you can still get cancer. You can only control so much. And one does not get a choice in the matter.


            I am so sick of hearing about how "badly run" gov't plans in other countries are. Insurance companies are badly run.

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            • #81
              1



              Lizzie,


              Agreed. This egocentric approach to a "social contract" makes my stomach turn. I'm all about taking care of my own health, and at the same time allow for a system that takes care of the general population. The fact that this bothers people boggles my mind.


              J

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              • #82
                1



                The conventional wisdom permeating most assumptions about health insurance and health care in this thread boggle the mind. Such as just for starters the idea that catastrophic insurance for cancer doesn't exist and cannot be purchased.


                or the notion that 'everyone needs insurance' but simultaneously 'it sucks that insurance doesn't cover everything regardless of expense!'


                canada has a lot of restrictions on things like raw milk. canada also has differently structured tax burdens, that vary by province. canada also doesn't have the nutrient deficiencies in its population that we do in america (thanks, agriculture subsidies from the government!)


                and of course, canada has pretty different ethnic demographics to america. plus it is waaaay smaller. it is easier to arrange a medical infrastructure when you can draw a line 100 miles out in a couple of regions and hit most of your population. can't say the same for america.


                health insurance isn't health care. i had fabulous experiences getting health care without insurance and without huge bills and without getting bankrupted. many people i know in america also had these experiences.


                are our anecdotes less valuable than those that rave about how great the nhs is or how AWESOME getting care in ontario was for someone?

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                • #83
                  1



                  fbw,


                  I don't disagree with anything you're saying. And I would never imply that Canada has it "right". Also, as you pointed out, there's a difference between mandatory insurance and universal health care. We're not "forced" to buy insurance in Canada. If you make money, you pay taxes, and that in turn pays for insurance. Most very poor families end up paying very little if any taxes, but still get health care when in need.


                  I'd rather live in a world that lends a helping hand than to horde it all for myself. But that's just me, and in the end, a personal choice.


                  J

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                  • #84
                    1



                    It is weird arguing a pro and anti universal health care plan all at once.


                    @AmyMac703- Ill bite, what do cigarette taxes have to do with anything?

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                    • #85
                      1



                      I guess I don't see what the big deal is. I live in Massachusetts - if you're a resident here, you must have medical coverage - so our lives here either stay the same or improve, or hell, get taxed slightly higher. I already get taxed for emergency services I have yet to use and schools I have yet to send my unborn children to. But when I need to use them, I certainly hope they're there. The Charles River is sort of far away from my apartment to lug water to if it starts to burn down. I also really don't feel like homeschooling my kids once their of age. I feel the same way about healthcare - I have yet to need a government plan, but when I do, I hope it's there. In the meantime, my coverage with my company stays the same.


                      What I would like to see is bans on big pharma advertising drugs. Excuse me, why do you need to advertise a "possible" medical condition and its drug solution? I'm not depressed, but you have me know thinking I need another antidepressant on top of the first one you convinced me to take.

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                      • #86
                        1



                        More taxes on things that make people sick = more money for the government to spend on helping sick people.

                        Subduction leads to orogeny

                        My blog that I don't update as often as I should: http://primalclimber.blogspot.com/

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          1



                          see, there you go with the CW, primalj. it's all a binary for you-- either must be heavily socialised, or one is 'hoarding it all for oneself'. because clearly there is no other way to go.


                          local hospitals where i live provide care for the poor out of their own free choice. they don't have to wait until some government insurance card is flashed. they just helpfully provide specialist care to the poor because they want to.


                          there's a lot of ways to help the poor, and paying the salaries of government officials and insurance company employees is hardly the only or best way to do that.


                          america has government-funded health insurance for the poor already. it just doesn't pay any money, so doctors tend to not take it. there's no plan to fix that, just increase the rolls so that people can proudly say the poor are 'covered'. as they watch doctor after doctor refuse them. great solution.


                          i wish this forum had threading, it is pretty hard to follow discussion when it gets this long.

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                          • #88
                            1



                            To those who are saying that they should not be forced because they don't get sick/injured.... Why the hell should I pay car insurance? I dont get into accidents, so there is no need for me to pay, I don't even get pulled over, so the cops would not even know that i am uninsured. But it is something that I have to do in case shit happens. To those who hate having to pay for insurance for their health, do you pay your car insurance, and if so, why? If you do, then you are going against your argument completely.

                            Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself. I quote John Lennon, "I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me."--Ferris Bueller, 1986
                            Check me out @ my blog: Retrospective Caveman
                            I set up a Facebook Group for all those who are eating and living Paleo/Primal

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                            • #89
                              1



                              I am not denying that Americans don't have good healthcare--but not ALL Americans. Sure there are lots of stories of great health care in the US--but they are restricted and a lot of people are left out; or are left bankrupt; or are dropped precisely at the point at which they need it: this is where the problem lies, and this is what the bill ostensibly addresses.


                              In the US, unlike the other systems anecdotally referred to here, a great many individuials are excluded or have crappy care, even after they have paid into it. In countries where HC is mandated for everyone, your personal economic situation, which may be beyond your control, does not mean that you might go without.


                              More people are going to have access, and more people, regardless of class or economic status are able to take care of their health, get operations they need, and so forth.


                              The reason why so many Cdns and Brits end up providing anecdotes is because these systems have been bashed propogandistically and used as negative examples....and the only response sometimes is to provide an eye-witness account to counter all the crap that gets spread around by interested parties.

                              And just because it is anecdotal does not automatically invalidate it.


                              The "I got mine" attitude in the US is a huge part of the problem. There is also this horror that the undeserving, ill-fed, poor are going to be ruining for the rest of us (the presumably "hard-working" middle and upper classes who, you know, got where we have by sheer self reliance...etc. etc.). Accessible, affordable healthcare in other countries seems far less contingent on excluding so many.


                              I do agree, however, that the size of this country does make universal healthcare extremely tricky. That doesn't mean that decent healthcare should not be available at an affordable cost to everyone, and that some people should just be shut out because of cost. The cost is ridiculous, and highly variable.


                              Also, I must confess that this bill is far, far from ideal: it is a watered down compromise. As long as profit based insurance companies are the for profit middlemen, the system is going to be a problem. Mandatory insurance is really not a great solution.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                1



                                The current bill will in no way improve the situation we have in the USA.


                                I hope to see it overturned by the Supreme Court on the basis of mandatory purchase of health insurance.

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