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So after reading marks post about coffee today, i have a query.

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  • #46
    Originally posted by patski View Post
    Also: dear James, Yerba mate doesn't contain caffeine but a similar substance. Mateen? I do t know the spelling. It doesn't give you jitters or make you crash.

    I love, love, LOVE Yerba mate!
    There is actually a lot of debate over whether mate' contains caffeine of mateine. Some studies have suggested that raw mate' primarily contains mateine, but the roasting of mate' coverts the mateine to caffeine.

    Unfortunately there is very little evidence to suggest that mateine and caffeine are different substances.

    Either way mate' is very nutritional and the nutrition does help offset any negative effects from the stimulatory effect. And mate' does have other beneficial effects beyond that such as helping improve heart function.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Dr. Bork Bork View Post
      Define unusual.
      If you're looking for something that tastes like coffee, try Teecino. It's herbal coffee. Tastes like joe, smells like joe, but it's made from herbs. It's not primal since they use barley, but we were already arguing that coffee in itself isn't paleo.
      I confess I like their "tee"bags better than the grounds (again cuz I can never get the flavor right when I use my aeropress). Vanilla nut is a good starter flavor.

      ETA: I also want to put a good word in for Republic of Tea & Zhena's Gypsy Tea. Both have pretty sensational chocolate teas. RoT has red velvet rooibos, and Zhena has chocolate chai. *does the herbal tea Snoopy dance*
      Anything, really, not just a coffee substitute. But hey HO that chocolate chai is going on my future treats list. The Teecino sounds fun to try, too.

      Thanks ... again!
      SW: 243
      CW: 177
      Goal: Health

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      • #48
        Originally posted by patski View Post
        Coffee quality varies greatly. Coffee is also packed full of mycotoxins. David Asprey talks a lot about this on his BulletproofExec site.
        So I had never heard the word mycotoxin and I rarely take the word of the guy selling the $20 can of coffee when it comes to science. Take a look at the checked answer on this page food safety - Are fungal toxins a significant problem in coffee, and if so, can they be avoided? - Seasoned Advice .

        Originally posted by patski View Post
        Recently it's been found that the molecular structure of coffee is similar to gluten. If you ate gluten intolerant, it'd be best to stay away.
        I find this extremely hard to believe, as I know people with extremely bad cases of celiac disease and they drink more coffee than I do (I drink a lot). They would be dead by now if that was the case.

        Originally posted by patski View Post
        I rarely drink coffee. I don't have the best reaction to it.
        No arguments there
        -Chuck

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        • #49
          Originally posted by charliemathers View Post
          Coffee has many great benefits. See link below.

          Ray Peat Forum - Caffeine: A vitamin-like nutrient, or adaptogen
          There are a number of things the author has overlooked or made mistakes on. I am not going to address each and every one of them because it will take to much time, but I will address some of them.

          To start with many of the antioxidant and the iron binding effects of coffee are due to the polyphenols. These are neutralized though by the addition of dairy, which most people add to their coffee in an attempt to make it taste better.

          Then there is the claims made by the author:

          "Caffeine protects against cancer caused by radiation, chemical carcinogens, viruses, and estrogens.

          Caffeine synergizes with progesterone, and increases its concentration in blood and tissues.
          "

          These claims are actually contradictory since progesterone increases the risk of certain cancers by activating carcinogenic human papilloma viruses that have been linked to various cancers including breast, cervical and prostate cancers.

          Coffee polyphenols can help destroy viruses and can bind numerous harmful substances and therefore could be considered beneficial in this way. Although the polyphenols also bind valuable nutrients and other beneficial compounds and by this makes it non-beneficial. And again the polyphenols are neutralized by the addition of dairy.

          Then the author claims:

          "Coffee provides very significant quantities of magnesium, as well as other nutrients including vitamin B1."

          But presence of does not mean available. Coffee contains polyphenols and oxalic acid that bind man nutrients.

          "The prenatal growth retardation that can be caused by feeding large amounts of caffeine is prevented by supplementing the diet with sugar."

          Supplementing the diet with sugar can lead to all sorts of health issues such as immune suppression.

          "Caffeine stops production of free radicals by inhibiting xanthine oxidase, an important factor in tissue stress."

          A major source of xanthine oxidase is dairy, which many people add to their coffee.

          "The increased metabolic rate caffeine produces increases the cellular consumption of glucose, so experiments that study the effects of coffee taken on an empty stomach are measuring the effects of increased temperature and metabolic rate, combined with increased adrenaline (resulting from the decrease of glucose), and so confuse the issue of caffeine’s intrinsic effects. "

          Coffee raises blood sugar in large part from the release of epinephrine, which increases glucose synthesis from liver glycogen and suppression of insulin release and utilization. Coffee further increases blood sugar by increasing cortisol levels.

          "Minton argued that cAMP increases progressively with the degree of breast disease, up to cancer, and that cAMP is increased by caffeine. "

          Caffeine does not increase cyclic adenosine monophosphate (cAMP) levels. Caffeine and other xanthines act as cAMP phosphodiesterase inhibitors (cAMPPDEIs). In short this means that the xanthines block the breakdown of existing cAMP, which is not the same as increasing cAMP levels.

          "Although we don’t know exactly why caffeine improves an athlete’s endurance, I think the same processes are involved when coffee increases a person’s “endurance” in ordinary activities. "

          The reason has been known for decades. Small amounts of caffeine block the breakdown of cAMP. This in turn stimulates brown adipose tissue to burn white adipose tissue as a primary fuel source sparing the body's glycogen reserves. Since lipids are a more efficient fuel for the body the use of white adipose tissue as a fuel source increases endurance. This is actually the same basis behind the use of the old ephedrine-caffeine mixes for weight loss. The ephedrine increases cAMP while the caffeine blocked the breakdown of cAMP promoting the reduction of white adipose tissue. Although caffeine amounts above 100mg actually have the opposite effect and reduce energy.

          An caffeine is in no way an adaptogen. Chronic use of caffeine weakens the adrenals, the opposite of adaptogens.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
            I honestly don't know on that. I would suggest asking your endo MD. For me the prohibition on caffeine is about my epilepsy. I am trying out some yerba mate (which is seriously yummy) to see if I have a similar reaction.
            I know you are not in to holistic medicine, but there are ways of actually correcting the problem. Epilepsy not only involves electrical hyperactivity but also myelin damage/deterioration allowing for the "short circuiting" of the nerves. Both are easy to address. If you ever decide you are interested let me know and I will explain how to do it. Otherwise I don't want to waste my time.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by JamesS View Post
              I know you are not in to holistic medicine, but there are ways of actually correcting the problem. Epilepsy not only involves electrical hyperactivity but also myelin damage/deterioration allowing for the "short circuiting" of the nerves. Both are easy to address. If you ever decide you are interested let me know and I will explain how to do it. Otherwise I don't want to waste my time.
              How did you get the idea that I am against all holistic medicine? Just because I called megadoses of iodine and the people who peddle it dangerous and hate that some guy can take peoples money selling them the idea that cancer is a fungus and he can cure it with baking soda doesn't mean I have a closed mind to all non "western" allopathic medicine. I'm just against quackery and snake oil salesmen.

              The theory behind using the ketogenic diet for epilepsy is that it helps to repair the myelin. I'm experimenting with cutting back my medication while maintaining ketosis. So far so good.

              If you have any other suggestions that could help, I'm all ears.

              Oh, and you can add the idea that Ray Peat's theories are as full of holes as swiss cheese to the list of things we agree on too.
              Last edited by Paleobird; 08-17-2012, 11:26 PM.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                How did you get the idea that I am against all holistic medicine? Just because I called megadoses of iodine and the people who peddle it dangerous and hate that some guy can take peoples money selling them the idea that cancer is a fungus and he can cure it with baking soda doesn't mean I have a closed mind to all non "western" allopathic medicine. I'm just against quackery and snake oil salesmen.

                The theory behind using the ketogenic diet for epilepsy is that it helps to repair the myelin. I'm experimenting with cutting back my medication while maintaining ketosis. So far so good.

                If you have any other suggestions that could help, I'm all ears.

                Oh, and you can add the idea that Ray Peat's theories are as full of holes as swiss cheese to the list of things we agree on too.
                Yes, the high dose iodine claims are ridiculous. And I totally agree that the sodium bicarbonate thing for cancer is quackery. I already did a whole chapter on that in the book I am writing on cancer.

                It was just a combination of things you said that made it sound like you were against holistic medicine.

                Anyway, let's start with myelin. The majority of myelin is composed of lecithin, and supplementing with lecithin granules will help increase myelin production. I recommend 1 tablespoon three times daily with meals. Larger doses are not recommended due to the high phosphorus content, which can have adverse effects on the bone. The fatty acids EPA and DHA as well as sublingual B12 in the form of methylcobalamin or trimethylglycine (TMG) also aid in the regeneration of myelin.

                It will take some time. Myelin regenerates so slowly that it was once thought it did not regenerate at all, but we now know it does.

                To help slow down brain over firing I recommend amino acids that increase GABA levels in the brain. The best are glycine, glutamine or taurine. Amino acids are best taken on an empty stomach at least 30 minutes before meals since they compete for absorption.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by impala454 View Post
                  So I had never heard the word mycotoxin and I rarely take the word of the guy selling the $20 can of coffee when it comes to science. Take a look at the checked answer on this page food safety - Are fungal toxins a significant problem in coffee, and if so, can they be avoided? - Seasoned Advice .


                  I find this extremely hard to believe, as I know people with extremely bad cases of celiac disease and they drink more coffee than I do (I drink a lot). They would be dead by now if that was the case.


                  No arguments there
                  Hey Chuck.

                  You know, your comments about celiac friends chugging back coffee and not dying actually makes me feel a lot better. I wasn't 100% sure myself on what I'd read.

                  Thanks!
                  A Post-Primal PrimalPat

                  Do not allow yourself to become wrapped up in a food 'lifestyle'. That is ego, and you are not that.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by JamesS View Post
                    If someone really wants the caffeine or "needs" the caffeine why not just either take caffeine tablets to avoid coffee's anti-nutrients and carcinogens or at least go to more healthy sources of caffeine such as yerba mate'?

                    And regardless, if using caffeine support the adrenals to prevent most of the long term adverse effects of caffeine usage.
                    James, what it your take on this?
                    Evaluation of the cyto- and genotoxic acti... [Mutat Res. 2009 Sep-Oct] - PubMed - NCBI

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by KathyH View Post
                      This is really nothing useful.

                      The first problem is that this is a Petri dish study. What happens in Petri dishes does not always correlate to what happens in the body. For example, there was one study that claimed that the herb St. Johnswort could cause infertility. The claim was based on a Petri dish study in which they applied St. Johnswort extract directly to sperm and found this could deform or kill the sperm. St. Johnswort though does not affect semen in the body though. Just like vitamin C will kill semen if directly applied. Yet everyone consumes vitamin C yet we were all somehow born.

                      The other limiting factor to this abstract is from this comment in the abstract:

                      "We found that yerba mate extract induced a concentration-dependent, statistically significant increase in the level of apoptotic and necrotic cells and a decrease in the nuclear division index (NDI)."

                      So they are using a concentrate directly on the lymphocytes but there is no statement as to what kind of extract, how concentrated the extract is or how high the levels of concentrate had to be to cause alterations in the cell. If I wanted to prove yerba mate' was toxic I could make a concentrated ethanol extract and apply it to any cell culture of the body and be able to induce alterations in the cell. Although I could do the same thing with virtually any substance, even a piece of steak.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by JamesS View Post
                        This is really nothing useful.

                        The first problem is that this is a Petri dish study. What happens in Petri dishes does not always correlate to what happens in the body. For example, there was one study that claimed that the herb St. Johnswort could cause infertility. The claim was based on a Petri dish study in which they applied St. Johnswort extract directly to sperm and found this could deform or kill the sperm. St. Johnswort though does not affect semen in the body though. Just like vitamin C will kill semen if directly applied. Yet everyone consumes vitamin C yet we were all somehow born.

                        The other limiting factor to this abstract is from this comment in the abstract:

                        "We found that yerba mate extract induced a concentration-dependent, statistically significant increase in the level of apoptotic and necrotic cells and a decrease in the nuclear division index (NDI)."

                        So they are using a concentrate directly on the lymphocytes but there is no statement as to what kind of extract, how concentrated the extract is or how high the levels of concentrate had to be to cause alterations in the cell. If I wanted to prove yerba mate' was toxic I could make a concentrated ethanol extract and apply it to any cell culture of the body and be able to induce alterations in the cell. Although I could do the same thing with virtually any substance, even a piece of steak.
                        Yes, I know it was just in vitro study and doesn't mean much.
                        How about this one? Can you dissect it?
                        High Levels of Carcinogenic Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons in Mate Drinks

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by JamesS View Post
                          Coffee has numerous adverse effects on health. I have posted on these several times:

                          coffee

                          coffee

                          Carcinogenic properties of coffee.

                          A great example of how research can be manipulated
                          James, I appreciate the time and effort you put into researching the science behind many health claims. With regards to coffee can you tell me the average amount of Benzene soluble matter that is in a typical cup of coffee. Also are you aware of any reliable research studies that present any possible benefits to drinking 1 to 2 cups of coffee per day.
                          Recent Blog: http://www.peakperformanceradio.net/...y-john-saville

                          https://www.facebook.com/PaleoJourne...?ref=bookmarks

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                          • #58
                            And then you have articles like this - weeding through the conflicting messages and information to find the truth can be challenging.

                            Health Benefits of Coffee - WebMD

                            (not that Webmd is a scientific research site but the article raises some interesting points)

                            My rule of thumb is to look at a picture of the so called experts who, you would think, practice what they preach. If the nutritional experts are overweight and unhealthy looking then I can't take them too seriously.

                            James, do you have a picture of yourself? It would be great to see the results of your healthy lifestyle.
                            Last edited by canuck416; 08-18-2012, 11:22 AM.
                            Recent Blog: http://www.peakperformanceradio.net/...y-john-saville

                            https://www.facebook.com/PaleoJourne...?ref=bookmarks

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                            • #59
                              Remember, no food or drink is it's components. It is a whole item. Coffee in it's parts may have some things that don't seem super healthy, but as a WHOLE it appears to not be unhealthy at all. Coffee has tons of antioxidants, so maybe that counter acts the things that some think could be unhealthy. (The caffeine and the tannins.)

                              I drink 1 to 2 cups a day. I have very little worry that it will effect my lifespan negatively. (or positively, for that matter.)

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                              • #60
                                Wow, some serious buzz kill in this thread.

                                I'll stick to drinking coffee - sometimes with unsalted butter added - and find larger issues to worry about.

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