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Whole grains in small measures are perfectly paleo.

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  • #16
    Plentiful, yes, accessible to humanity - not so much. We have expanded beyond our place in the food chain a huge deal.
    My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
    When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by JoanieL View Post
      That.

      I consider them empty calories. Quinoa is a seed, so that should be primal. But it's still got about 26 gms of carbs in a quarter cup (uncooked). If you're aiming at <100 gms of carbs in a day to aid satiety and weight loss, that's a big chunk of it for not much food and one that could make you feel hungry.
      Wheat, barley, rye, oats etc are all seeds as well. As are beans, peas, lentils etc. if anything, seeds are not primal or paleo, it's in the best interest of the plant to not be edible or digestible.
      Fighting fibromyalgia and chronic myofascial pain since 2002.

      Big Fat Fiasco

      Our bodies crave real food. We remain hungry as long as we refuse to eat real food, no matter how much junk we stuff into our stomachs. ~J. Stanton

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      • #18
        Thank you, Elaine. I'll go do some research to further my understanding.
        "Right is right, even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong, even if everyone is doing it." - St. Augustine

        B*tch-lite

        Who says back fat is a bad thing? Maybe on a hairy guy at the beach, but not on a crab.

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        • #19
          Paleo Diet Myths - YouTube

          This fellow is someone I know from long experience as a knowledgeable and capable forager and botanist. I suggest you give the video a gander.

          Before you suggest I need to read PB and Robb's book, know that I have. My issue is with the lack of understanding about what foods really were paleo back in the day as opposed to what modern authors think is paleo. I forage a good deal for my food, have for years and know what going hungry really means.

          Some folks go on about how our ancestors would not have eaten them but think about it, grains can be collected and stored for lean times. ( Winter is coming ) No they may not have been a major part of our diet but I believe they did play a role. Someone said who would eat grains if they had animals to feast on and I am a bit suspicious of their understanding of what it takes to gather enough food, animal plant or otherwise to feed the clan. I hunt, a lot, Squirrels, rabbits, pigeons, when possible, groundhogs, deer in season, ducks, geese, partridge, etc with a bow normally and a slingshot often. Do you have any idea how hard it is to gather animals to eat? Do you have any idea how often you come home with just a brace of birds and a squirrel or two to feed your family?

          Try bugs, see how far they take you if you would rather do that than eat grains. Faster to hunt small game or eat some tubers? really? Assuming the game was there and the gods granted you the chance to catch them, and assuming tubers were in season then yes they would be easier than some of the things you can do with grains but not if you figure in that you may have a rawhide box of wild rice in your stores and it takes less time to make a porridge or just roast up the grain while waiting for the hunters to come home.

          I assure you being a hunter/gatherer is a unstable and work intensive occupation, you never know if the game will be there today and if you can add a handful of wild rice, amaranth, oats etc to the pot, then you have than many more calories to keep going. So lacking personal experience with actual HG groups, I have to go on what I know works and adding rough grains will thicken stews and soups and make the food go farther.

          Maybe they did not grind mass amounts into flour and live on bread but if there was grains that could be harvested, cooked and eaten in the area, I am certain they would have used them. Think winter, cause dried booffalo gets old fast.

          Yes I have weight to loose, so I limit the grain intake a lot but I like the taste and texture in soups and stews. I like oats as a part of the stuffing and rice can spread the food I do have farther, I cant eat wheat, makes me sick so I avoid it. Legumes make me fart for days so yeah not so much.

          We romanticize Grok too much I think because we dont understand what a true HG has to do to stave off starvation for him and his clan and his children. Forage your food, then tell me grok would not have used everything he could have when he came home to hungry kids, again.
          Primal since April 2012 Male 6' 3" SW 345lbs CW 240lbs GW 220lbs and when I get there I am getting a utlikilt. This one http://www.utilikilts.com/company/pr...ilts/workmans/ actually.

          Join me at www.paleoplanet.net, where all the cavemen hang out.

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          • #20
            I think it is not so much the romantic notion as different ideals.

            Paleo/Primal diet as a way to identify and consume foods that lead to optimal health and performance based on the analysis of the natural human diet, and allowing neolitic additions that did not change the nourishing quality is one way to look at it. On the other hand if you want to model your diet on the idea that anything that was modified from a natural state after the on-set of agriculture is bad for a human being....

            Basically, whatever concept you accept will lead to your selection of food groups. Then comes self-experimentation. Myself, I am of an opinion that whole foods are a better approach for me personally, so I do not have to discard legumes or quark because on the planes of Africa they did not sow or milked the zebras. I am also not about to eat worms or honey, because first creeps me out, and the second causes me to break out....
            My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
            When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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            • #21
              @ warmbear's post
              OK, but you're not a HG just barely making caloric ends meet. You are an overweight modern guy trying to lose weight. As such you need to make sure that every calorie you consume is the most nutrient dense possible. Grains are not nutrient dense. Never have been never will be. They give you calories to subsist on, sure. But they are not optimal nutrition. (Never mind all the What Would Grok Do? stuff)

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              • #22
                It's not romancing Grok to make the simple observation that few modern or ancient hunger gatherers consumed grains on a regular basis. What they ate is the basis of what causes a food to be categorized as "paleo". What is safe, nutritious or advantageous to eat falls in another category. That other category could be "primal" or "archevore" or "Weston A. Price" or what have you. That doesn't make eating grains bad or good. Just not paleo.
                Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Leida View Post
                  Paleo/Primal diet as a way to identify and consume foods that lead to optimal health and performance based on the analysis of the natural human diet, and allowing neolitic additions that did not change the nourishing quality is one way to look at it.
                  +1

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                    @ warmbear's post
                    OK, but you're not a HG just barely making caloric ends meet. You are an overweight modern guy trying to lose weight. As such you need to make sure that every calorie you consume is the most nutrient dense possible. Grains are not nutrient dense. Never have been never will be. They give you calories to subsist on, sure. But they are not optimal nutrition. (Never mind all the What Would Grok Do? stuff)
                    i think it's also worth noting that whatever grains, seeds and nuts grok may have happened upon had very little in common with the hybrid, fast-growing, easy processing stuff that almost never spoils. ya know... the stuff on our supermarket shelves.
                    As I ate the oysters with their strong taste of the sea and their faint metallic taste that the cold white wine washed away, leaving only the sea taste and the succulent texture, and as I drank their cold liquid from each shell and washed it down with the crisp taste of the wine, I lost the empty feeling and began to be happy and to make plans.

                    Ernest Hemingway

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by noodletoy View Post
                      i think it's also worth noting that whatever grains, seeds and nuts grok may have happened upon had very little in common with the hybrid, fast-growing, easy processing stuff that almost never spoils. ya know... the stuff on our supermarket shelves.
                      Exactly. Theres no point in debating wether or not they ate grains. It doesnt matter. Grains in the 20th century have changed so much and as a result become so toxic to us. read "wheat belly".

                      If you think for one second that stuff is primal your dead wrong and have no idea what primal is.

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                      • #26
                        I'm coming around to the way of thinking that 'paleo' and 'primal' are excellent ways of helping us to eliminate frankenfoods from our diet (sucrose, gluten, PUFAs).

                        Although it's easier to draw the line on 'all cereals' than it is with gluten, I think that the case against oats for example is far less firm than that against wheat (which is why we still give our kids porridge for breakfast several times a week).

                        Originally posted by Darz View Post
                        In my opinion, if you have no intolerances, allergies or symptoms by eating those and you are active and healthy then eat them; I went further and reintroduced pasta every once in a while.
                        I find that pasta tastes like cardboard now.
                        Last edited by magicmerl; 08-02-2012, 03:38 PM.
                        Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

                        Griff's cholesterol primer
                        5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
                        Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
                        TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
                        bloodorchid is always right

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                        • #27
                          Hey Warmbear,

                          Seems like a lot of people are missing the point and focusing on the "diet" part of paleo. First off kudos to you for doing such a great job. My husband is a lot like you in that he is curious about how paleo people actually lived, he's gone so far as hunted, learned to flintknapp and has grown ancient wheat. He has always maintained that small amounts of grain were part of the diet, like you said added to stews and soups to extend the meal. It makes sense that there would have been some consumption of grain prior to full on agriculture.

                          I am looking forward to watching the video you linked to. Gotta go now we're off to forage blackberries.
                          Life is death. We all take turns. It's sacred to eat during our turn and be eaten when our turn is over. RichMahogany.

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                          • #28
                            For immediate weight loss in a primal context, I think anyone should eliminate all the grains. This will help shed that initial water weight and hopefully get the body in fat-burning mode.

                            After that, continue with the PB, but if you're lifting a good deal, I think adding things like white rice after workouts is good. And others will disagree, that's fine. And heck, it could be a part of the 20%.
                            "Carbs are the victim, not the crime" - ChocoTaco

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                            • #29
                              Grains at best add nothing to your regular nutrient profile compared to real food.

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                              • #30
                                They cannot be eaten raw, off the plant w/o removing layers of husk. I do not believe these items would've been recognized as food.

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