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Iodine: a discussion, and perhaps a civilized debate

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  • I am here to do the right thing. This thread (poor and neglected) definitely needs some push.
    Last edited by anna5; 08-19-2012, 04:30 AM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by JamesS View Post
      Since the thyroid was removed they have no other choice other than to take pharmaceutical thyroid hormones. But I would go with Armour over Synthroid since it at least provides T4 and the more biologically active T3. Synthroid is only the less active T4.

      As for the high cholesterol my main suggestions would be bitters and lecithin. The bitters help the liver process cholesterol more efficiently. Lecithin is a fat emulsifier and keeps cholesterol in solution and promotes its excretion. Fish oils will help increase HDL, which in turn lowers LDL. I also like sterol rich plants. Sterols have a very high affinity for cholesterol and tightly bind to it. Sterols will bind the cholesterol from diet and will bind to the cholesterol released in to the intestines in bile. The binding prevents the reabsorption of the cholesterol. Various plants contain sterols. The highest source I have found though is Gynostemma (jiaogulan). Food wise olive oil is a source and seeds have a fair amount. Here is more information:

      Dietary Plant Sterols and Cholesterol Metabolism

      Plant Sterols and Stanols for Helping High Cholesterol

      Inverse relation between dietary intake of naturally occurring plant sterols and serum cholesterol in northern Sweden

      Since hypothyroidism also increases inflammatory homocysteine increasing the risk of heart disease I also recommend trimethylglycine (TMG) to keep the homocysteine levels down.
      Thank you James. Doing a quick google search it seems lots of people feel better taking Armour but it is very hard to get a doctor to prescribe it. Thank you for the info on lecithins and sterols. I will suggest to her increasing foods that contain lecithins and sterol.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by magicmerl View Post
        FFS. James, I respect your posts. I don't respect those of Grizz. You blur the distinction between you and Grizz in the minds of others such as myself when you repeatedly debate him. Just ignore him.

        Also, enough with accusing every post you think is misrepresenting you as 'lying'. Otherwise that word will take on the same meaning as 'trolling' within the iodine thread.

        If there's something that you think is wrong, just say that and move on. I'd say that continuing to argue would cause the thread to degenerate but quite frankly, it's hard for Iodine on MDA to sink lower than it has already.
        For the most part I have been ignoring his posts. That is mainly because he was asking the same question over and over that had already been answered. But it is hard just to sit back while someone deliberately posts repeated lies about you because they have no clue what they are talking about so this becomes their last resort since they cannot debate the evidence. It is very irritating though when he keeps resorting to a bogus e-mail from IndiaDivine that has nothing to do with the topic, this site, or anything else. It is just dirt he can throw. Yet he has yet to say how it was I contacted anyone as the e-mail claims when I had no access to anyone's e-mail addresses unless they wrote me first showing the e-mail was fabricated.

        Regardless I have tried to get the discussion back on track by asking to get back on topic and posting some studies for discussion. But the thread has still degenerated because some people are more interested in discussing their underwear or lack of instead of iodine. That's something I really don't understand. If they are not here to contribute to the actual topic then why do they even bother coming here? They should go start a "Is wearing underwear primal or not?" thread.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by KathyH View Post
          Thank you James. Doing a quick google search it seems lots of people feel better taking Armour but it is very hard to get a doctor to prescribe it.
          Yes, it is hard to get doctors to prescribe it. I think they are reluctant because the hormone levels are not standardized and thus more variable. On the other hand most of the thyroid medications are only T4, which is much less biologically active than T3. T4 can normally be converted in to T3, but this is dependent on properly functioning adrenal glands, which most people crash with things like caffeine, nicotine and chronic stress.

          There is also a T3 available, but I have only known about 2 people who ever had it prescribed in conjunction with T4.

          Comment


          • James, I am have a question for you to see if you have any suggestions. My husband had an itchy spot on the back of his head that he kept scratching and it was very red. Went to the doc and got dismissed and told to just stop scratching. Well he couldn't control the itch so he kept scratching to the point that it got infected. Wen back to the doc and they injected steroid into the spot and then few days later he broke up in a rash all over the body, scalp, face, arms, chest and buttocks. THis was 2 weeks ago and the rash is not going away and doc doesn't know what it is. He was given numerous creams, lotions etc but nothing helps. Do you have any suggestions at all what he might try? He can't sleep at night any more.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by JamesS View Post
              Yes, it is hard to get doctors to prescribe it. I think they are reluctant because the hormone levels are not standardized and thus more variable. On the other hand most of the thyroid medications are only T4, which is much less biologically active than T3. T4 can normally be converted in to T3, but this is dependent on properly functioning adrenal glands, which most people crash with things like caffeine, nicotine and chronic stress.

              There is also a T3 available, but I have only known about 2 people who ever had it prescribed in conjunction with T4.
              Thanks. Any suggestion how to talk to the doc to make him prescribe it?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Owl View Post
                Synthroid is T4 only, if your mom is not converting it to T3 well, or converting it to Reverse T3, then it's not doing much for her. A natural dessicated thyroid like Armour, Nature-Throid, Cytomel, or Cynomel is better. Armour reformulated theirs a few years ago, putting binders in that prevent absorption. My doc won't recommend it. I'm on a combo of Nature-Throid and a T3 only med, because of a RT3 problem.

                The main problem is getting your mom to a doctor who won't go just by TSH and T4 test levels, which is how most endos operate. TSH is a hormone the pituitary makes, to tell the thyroid to make more thyroid hormone. Your mom has no thyroid and is on meds, so TSH cannot be relied upon.

                Total T4 is the other test normally used. It shows how much total T4 the Synthroid is putting in her system, but she needs to test Free T4, which is the T4 that's unbound and available for her body to actually use. She also needs to test Free T3, to see how well it's being converted. Reverse T3 is also a problem for many people. Sometimes the T4 is converted to RT3, and that blocks T3 from being used by the body.

                The high cholesterol may come down dramatically when she gets treated correctly for hypothyroidism. Colleen Coble, who's a member here, had her husband's cholesterol drop 100 points when his hypothyroidism was treated.

                Go to this site and read up on thyroid. It's good for basics: Thyroid Mistreatment, Hypothyroidism Scandals, and Thyroid Treatment Problems | Stop The Thyroid Madness
                Thanks.
                Which one is the best to start with Armour, Nature-Throid, Cytomel, or Cynomel?
                She is making an appointment with a different doctor. What tests should she ask to have done?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by KathyH View Post
                  Thanks.
                  Which one is the best to start with Armour, Nature-Throid, Cytomel, or Cynomel?
                  She is making an appointment with a different doctor. What tests should she ask to have done?
                  TSH, FT4, Ft3, Rt3, TPO antibodies

                  what she should start with will depend on the results of the testing.
                  check out the link Owl gave you it`s a very good primer on thyroid and includes suggested testing and types of thyroid meds

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by KathyH View Post
                    James, I am have a question for you to see if you have any suggestions. My husband had an itchy spot on the back of his head that he kept scratching and it was very red. Went to the doc and got dismissed and told to just stop scratching. Well he couldn't control the itch so he kept scratching to the point that it got infected. Wen back to the doc and they injected steroid into the spot and then few days later he broke up in a rash all over the body, scalp, face, arms, chest and buttocks. THis was 2 weeks ago and the rash is not going away and doc doesn't know what it is. He was given numerous creams, lotions etc but nothing helps. Do you have any suggestions at all what he might try? He can't sleep at night any more.
                    As for the rash I recommend quercetin. Not the QBC (quercetin, bromelain and C) but straight quercetin 400-500mg. It is getting harder to find straight sine it has gotten so expensive so it usually combined with bromelain and sometimes vitamin C, which in my opinion are pretty much cheap fillers.

                    Anyway, quercetin is a bioflavonoid commercially derived from yellow onion skins. It is an extremely effective antihistamine. I recommend 1 capsule on an empty stomach as needed.

                    As for the itchy spot, what did it look like before? Flat or raised? Smooth, crusty or flaky? Round or irregular? Any color?

                    Comment


                    • I did post this here, but I didn't give the abstract. Interesting take in that it may not be a deficiency in iodine so much as an overabundance of carbohydrate in the modern diet that leads to insufficiency. Found it interesting: Elsevier

                      Abstract

                      An increased iodine requirement as a result of significant changes in human nutrition rather than a decreased environmental iodine supply is suggested to represent the main cause of the iodine deficiency disorders (IDD). The pathomechanism proposed is based on the fact that serum concentrations of thyroid hormones, especially of trijodothyronine (T3), are dependent on the amount of dietary carbohydrate. High-carbohydrate diets are associated with significantly higher serum T3 concentrations, compared with very low-carbohydrate diets. While our Paleolithic ancestors subsisted on a very low carbohydrate/high protein diet, the agricultural revolution about 10,000 years ago brought about a significant increase in dietary carbohydrate. These nutritional changes have increased T3 levels significantly. Higher T3 levels are associated with an enhanced T3 production and an increased iodine requirement. The higher iodine requirement exceeds the availability of iodine from environmental sources in many regions of the world, resulting in the development of IDD.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by KathyH View Post
                        Thanks. Any suggestion how to talk to the doc to make him prescribe it?
                        I would simply tell the doctor that this is what I want. The patient should have some say in how they decide to treat their condition as long as it is not detrimental.

                        But there are some things that could be barriers. For example, an insurance company may not be willing to pay for it. And as I mentioned previously HMOs can especially be a problem. HMO doctors are not only paid to not perform various needed tests, but they also have an "approved prescription list". In other words the HMO doctors are only allowed to prescribe drugs that the HMO is invested in to or get kickbacks from the drug companies for. Otherwise, if you insist there should not be a problem with most doctors. You can always use the explanation given before about the T4 and T3 if the doctor wants to know why.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by KathyH View Post
                          Thanks.
                          Which one is the best to start with Armour, Nature-Throid, Cytomel, or Cynomel?
                          She is making an appointment with a different doctor. What tests should she ask to have done?
                          I recommend the Nature-Throid.

                          Even though the thyroid was removed they still have to monitor thyroid hormone levels to see how the hormones are being utilized and they have to watch serum calcium levels since excess thyroid hormone levels can lead to bone breakdown. These will primarily be as the patient has been on the drug, but they will likely do these tests before hand just as a baseline to begin with and to make sure that calcium is not already elevated from something else like hyperparathyroidism or pseudohyperparathyroidism.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JamesS View Post
                            As for the rash I recommend quercetin. Not the QBC (quercetin, bromelain and C) but straight quercetin 400-500mg. It is getting harder to find straight sine it has gotten so expensive so it usually combined with bromelain and sometimes vitamin C, which in my opinion are pretty much cheap fillers.

                            Anyway, quercetin is a bioflavonoid commercially derived from yellow onion skins. It is an extremely effective antihistamine. I recommend 1 capsule on an empty stomach as needed.

                            As for the itchy spot, what did it look like before? Flat or raised? Smooth, crusty or flaky? Round or irregular? Any color?
                            The itchy spot was pink/red, raised, irregular. It was smooth before he started scratching it a lot and then it became crusty. It looked like yellow substance was coming out of it and it seemed like that as it was drying it was forming a crust. That's when he went to see a doctor and the doc gave him a steroid injection in that spot and put him on antibiotic to kill the infection. After the steroid injection he got a rash all over. BTW, he tried Benadryl to relieve the itch and it did nothing for him.
                            I am off to find quercetin. Thank you.
                            Last edited by KathyH; 08-19-2012, 09:26 AM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Quarry View Post
                              Yes, a journal is another thread, it is not private, it is not like your own home Paleobird. If you slink off there to defame someone, they have the right to respond. It is a public forum and none of the threads are invitation only.
                              Geez this thread was running smoothly with lots of great information before Grizz and Paleobird came back!
                              I didn't slink anywhere. Defending indefensibly rude behavior is pointless. And, yes the thread was running smoothly but then again, Mussolini made the trains run on time too.

                              Originally posted by Quarry View Post
                              When I first popped in on the first Iodine thread and Grizz and Paleobird were at it worse than my teen sons and I asked who was worse you would not believe the number of PMs from members saying how Paleobird thinks she runs the forum and is rude and smug and patronizing. More than a few said she drove a number of older members away. I can see why.
                              How many and who exactly? Even if I am rude and condescending (which I fully agree I can be to ignorant jerks), I'm certainly not the only one on this board, yet it's all my fault some unspecified person left?

                              Originally posted by bloodorchid View Post
                              yes, whaa whaa whaa the mean person made me leave
                              instead of just putting mean person on ignore
                              we get it, paleobird's magic power is knocking the others off the perch
                              I wave a feather and they just drop off.

                              Originally posted by JamesS View Post
                              Once again you have everything wrong. First of all if someone is going to post an outright lie about me just because they got their ass whooped by real evidence and they were unhappy about it then it does not matter where that post is. I have every right to respond to their lie. You keep referring to everyone having a screw loose, but your constant lies and insults just proves to everyone who really has the loose screw. If you cannot figure out who that is take a long hard look in the mirror.

                              As an example of the above you state "You don't go into someone's home uninvited and unleash a multi page tirade at them.". One post is a "multi page tirade"? Are you really that much of a complete moron or just a chronic liar? Please let me me know which one it is so we all know how to properly refer to you.

                              Don't worry, I have no interest in Grizz. As I pointed out earlier he is not my type and you two have so much in common. Neither of you can tell the truth if your lives depend on it and both of you think posting lies and insults in every post is an Olympic sport and the two of you are competing for the gold.

                              Why don't you do everyone a favor and check out of this thread as you claimed you were doing earlier? Oh, that's right you are incapable of telling the truth.
                              It was one post that was so long it had to be split into a multi post multi page tirade and I didn't lie about you. I expressed my opinion about you. I didn't tell people you mutilate kittens for fun, that would be lying. I said I thought you were unhinged. Opinion=/=truth or lies, just opinion.

                              Originally posted by Gay Panda View Post
                              Why does she get magical powers and I don't? Life isn't fair.
                              You are already magical, Pandapants.

                              Originally posted by cori93437 View Post
                              I think the real secret magic that some of these fine folks aren't telling the Panda is that they are taking the Iodine supplements... but also SKIPPING the Lithium supplements.


                              Originally posted by JamesS View Post
                              Here, let's see if we can get this thread back on topic:
                              Iodine-Induced hypothyroidism.
                              [Hypothyroidism related to excess iodine].
                              It's terrible when someone you've just called a moron agrees with you about the actual topic at hand isn't it?

                              Originally posted by Sceptic View Post
                              Please try to keep things civil and avoid personal attacks, even if they're responses to perceived attacks. I'm finding your posts quite interesting in general where they don't devolve into pointless arguments with two or three others.

                              Incidentally, Paleobird had a good point earlier about how some of this is getting quite off the topic of iodine. Perhaps you could start another thread about herbal remedies or some such for the non-iodine-related discussions? I doubt that I'd be the only one here who would follow it too
                              A very good suggestion.

                              Originally posted by JamesS View Post
                              Presse Med. 2002 Oct 26;31(35):1658-63.
                              [Adaptation of thyroid function to excess iodine].
                              Darn, the "moron" agrees with you yet again.

                              Originally posted by JamesS View Post
                              Thyroid. 2001 May;11(5):493-500.
                              Iodine excess and hyperthyroidism.
                              And again.

                              Originally posted by JamesS View Post
                              Presse Med. 2002 Oct 26;31(35):1664-9.
                              [Hyperthyroidism due to excess iodine].
                              And again.

                              Originally posted by magicmerl View Post
                              FFS. James, I respect your posts. I don't respect those of Grizz. You blur the distinction between you and Grizz in the minds of others such as myself when you repeatedly debate him. Just ignore him.

                              Also, enough with accusing every post you think is misrepresenting you as 'lying'. Otherwise that word will take on the same meaning as 'trolling' within the iodine thread
                              Grizz does the same thing. Accuses everyone of LYING instead of just being wrong. It gets old I agree.

                              Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                              I did post this here, but I didn't give the abstract. Interesting take in that it may not be a deficiency in iodine so much as an overabundance of carbohydrate in the modern diet that leads to insufficiency. Found it interesting: Elsevier

                              Abstract

                              An increased iodine requirement as a result of significant changes in human nutrition rather than a decreased environmental iodine supply is suggested to represent the main cause of the iodine deficiency disorders (IDD). The pathomechanism proposed is based on the fact that serum concentrations of thyroid hormones, especially of trijodothyronine (T3), are dependent on the amount of dietary carbohydrate. High-carbohydrate diets are associated with significantly higher serum T3 concentrations, compared with very low-carbohydrate diets. While our Paleolithic ancestors subsisted on a very low carbohydrate/high protein diet, the agricultural revolution about 10,000 years ago brought about a significant increase in dietary carbohydrate. These nutritional changes have increased T3 levels significantly. Higher T3 levels are associated with an enhanced T3 production and an increased iodine requirement. The higher iodine requirement exceeds the availability of iodine from environmental sources in many regions of the world, resulting in the development of IDD.
                              This is a very interesting contribution of substance to this thread. Neckhammer, what were you thinking?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by JamesS View Post
                                I recommend the Nature-Throid.

                                Even though the thyroid was removed they still have to monitor thyroid hormone levels to see how the hormones are being utilized and they have to watch serum calcium levels since excess thyroid hormone levels can lead to bone breakdown. These will primarily be as the patient has been on the drug, but they will likely do these tests before hand just as a baseline to begin with and to make sure that calcium is not already elevated from something else like hyperparathyroidism or pseudohyperparathyroidism.
                                I am not sure if this is the same as having thyroid gland removed but basically she took nuclear medicine to stop the thyroid gland functioning. I will ask her doctor for Nature-Throid. Thank you

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