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Iodine: a discussion, and perhaps a civilized debate

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  • Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
    Thanks, breadsauce, I appreciate the sentiment. But really, when it come to actual iodine issues, James and I are pretty much on the same page. He overdoes the rants against the medical establishment a bit much for my tastes, but hey, that's just his viewpoint.
    One that people don't have to read if they don't like what I have to say. If they do choose to read what I have to say though that does not give them the right to start with personal attacks just because they disagree with the evidence.

    Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
    I never said that there weren't bad doctors out there or that money does not factor into the medical care industry. After all it is an industry. I only said that, when one pays regular HMO dues,
    Ah, so your treatment did cost you as I pointed out earlier.


    Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
    the more expensive treatments come out of the HMO's pockets thereby discrediting the argument that doctors give you treatments you don't need when herbs would work and suppress herbal cures because they want your money. My HMO would have lost a lot less money on my cancer if they had given me herbs, or baking soda.
    And once again this has been addressed several times in the past. HMOs are bound to specific rules. If they knew herbs worked by searching massive amount of studies on Medline and they were ALLOWED to use herbs they they probably would to increase their profits. After all they pay doctors to not perform tests to increase their profits. So parroting the same proven misleading claim is not getting us anywhere.

    You are also overlooking the well known fact that the HMOs have an "approved prescription list". Why so they only allow certain drugs to be prescribed? Because these are the drugs that they have invested in to. So they not only make a profit off the direct mark up they make selling the drug to the patient, but they also make money from being invested in to these drugs and the kickbacks they get from the drug companies. So they are not out of near as much money as you think they are.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
      If you actually read both you would see that we are agreeing 9 times out of 10. He's just a bit more into the conspiracy of the evil doctors meme than I am.
      That is because:

      1. I have personally witnessed numerous examples of doctor incompetence, idiocy, lunacy and corruption.

      2. I have also done considerable research in to what actually goes on in the medical system including unnecessary operations, FDA approval of untested drugs, manipulation of studies to get drugs approved, hiding known side effects to get drugs approved, illegal investments in to pharmaceutical companies by FDA officials overseeing these drug companies, allowing known highly lethal drugs to remain on the market some even over the counter, etc. Are many of these conspiracies? Absolutely, which is why I wonder you are not more interested in verifying these facts since millions of people or more have died as a result of these corruptions over the decades. You want to convince people to use poisonous, carcinogenic chemotherapy drugs for their cancers while showing no concern for the rampant corruption leading the unnecessary deaths of hundreds of thousands each year due primarily to dangerous pharmaceuticals. Why is that exactly? For example, as I mentioned before even the FDA estimates there are over 16,500 people a year that die from their approved NSAID drugs. Those numbers are actually quite low since deaths are often listed by the side effects of these drugs such as heart attack, stroke, kidney failure, hepatitis, etc. rather than the drug itself. Just like deaths from chemotherapy or radiation therapy are listed as death by the person's cancer instead. So we have at least 16,500 deaths annually according to the FDA by this drug class alone. Now add in deadly antidepressants, diabetes drugs, chemotherapy drugs including AZT, etc. and the annual death toll by pharmaceutical drugs skyrockets. So again I ask, why no concern over the millions of people who have died and the others that will die in the future at the hands of these deadly pharmaceutical drugs?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by lambchop View Post
        JamesS, clearly it was frustrating being a non member and reading those threads when you had a contrary view. I appreciate the effort you took to respond. I am sorry this was your welcome. I hope you stick around about you obviously have a lot to offer this forum.
        I will probably be around off and on. I don't have a lot of time normally. I have other places I post, am working on two books, taking care of someone who with iodine poisoning from a pharmaceutical drug one of those "real" doctors gave him even though he did not need it, trying to run a business, teach classes, do consultations and if possible get a little sleep and have a personal life.

        I just happened to see Grizz post about this forum calling everyone who was disagreeing with him "trolls" so I had to check out what he was talking about since we have butted heads numerous times in the past. When I started reading a lot of the misinformation being presented I just had to jump in. So anyway, I will be popping in and out depending on my schedule.

        As far as the personal attacks go I am pretty much use to it. You should see how hated I am on Curezone for exposing the quackery there. I have the honor of having more complaints filed against me and being banned from more forums on Curezone than any other individual in the history of Curezone. The Webmaster finally banned me since I was discrediting the claims of many of his advertisers such as the promoters of excess iodine and "oleander soup" and heavily discredited "liver flushes". Funny thing is that I had one of the top three most active forums on Curezone and in just the last 3 years climbed to number 25 of the top 300 forums based on the number of views. The only forums ahead of me have been on Curezone a lot longer that I was. So I made a lot of enemies on Curezone and numerous personal attacks against me was a daily occurrence there. In fact, I still see people posting lies and other personal attacks about me to this day even though I have been there for months. Still, I get tired quickly of the condescending remarks such as making reference to conspiracy theories or the "tin hat" comments. When people have to resort to such insults it only shows they have no real evidence to come back with so they resort to trying to discredit the person by implying that they are as Grizz put it a "nut case".

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Omni View Post
          Agreed, debate the topic not the individual, information is what counts, if you want team sports go to the relevant sports channel.

          Just on the Iodine thing I noticed some comments regarding Iodine allergies, I do not believe there is such a thing technically, as it would very quickly result in death, there is Iodine toxicity which everyone is susceptable to although sensitivity may vary and this seems to be the issue with CT scans, what most people refer to as Iodine allergy is an immune response to specific proteins found in shellfish, one of these being from the Keyhole Limpet which is used in many vaccines and raises the question of Vaccines & Allergies, but that is another story.
          I found this little statement regarding the CT reaction below:

          .IV Contrast Dye. This reaction is non-allergic but can result in anaphylaxis because the high concentration of the dye causes mast cells to release their contents, which mimics an allergic reaction. While there is no test available for reactions to IV contrast, most patients can take the dye safely by taking oral steroids and anti-histamines hours before the contrast is given. The contrast is usually given in a less concentrated form to these patients. Let your doctor know if you’ve had a past reaction to IV contrast before receiving it again.
          Yes, I totally agree. It is like people claiming they have allergies to sulfur. Sulfur makes up so much of the body that if they were actually allergic to sulfur they would be having an allergic reaction 24/7, not just when they ingested something with sulfur that is present in nearly all foods.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Danielfire View Post
            Amen. (and wtf?)

            James, nice to have you on board and a lot of people around here are decent. Paleobird's welcome (not) is not characteristic of this forum.

            You have a lot of interesting things to say and I am hoping you offer a bit on the athletic threads too! Welcome, dude.
            Thanks.

            If you want to post a link to what you want me to respond to specifically I will take a look. My time is really limited and I don't want to spend a lot of time searching through the whole forum.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Gwynn View Post
              Welcome, James. I am glad you are posting here.

              Gwynn
              Thanks Gwynn for the welcome.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Danielfire View Post
                I think there were some iodine anaphylactic deaths (medically) reported here in the news in Australia as the inquests played out. It had something to do with being injected as part of a medical scan. I will find the links.
                I wonder though if it was not the form of iodine the person had a reaction to instead of iodine in general. For example, people can be allergic to sulfites but not sulfur. Therefore, how the sulfur is bound makes a huge difference.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by RobinNM View Post
                  Maybe, but she's entertaining about it, and that ALWAYS makes it okay in my own personal, humble opinion.

                  I'm not sure why PB is the one getting hammered here. I've gone back and skimmed JamesS responses. He does present interesting info, but it seems to me that it's done with just a hint of condescension because we don't know said info. His vaunted 33 years in the medical industry (he didn't say as what) seem to trump anyone else's experience and if we don't agree with him that doctors and the medical establishment are evil money grubbing test and pill pushers, then we are just idiots. That's just my take on the way his posts are written. I admit right up front I didn't read all of them all of the way through, as my eyes glazed over just a bit.
                  My experience has nothing to do with "trumping" someone else's experience as you put it nor to insinuate that anyone here is stupid. The point of stating my years in medicine is simply to acknowledge that I do understand medicine and the human body. Would you want to get your medical advice from your mechanic?

                  And why do you think this thread even got started? Ah, that's right. Because someone with no medical background, and no comprehension of how the body works was advocating poisonous levels of iodine and was jumping on the iodism symptoms being the mythical "bromine detox" to get people to take even higher, dangerous levels of iodine.

                  I am sorry you feel so threatened by the fact that I have so many years in medicine and do a hell of a lot of medical research from medical journals as part of my job. But bottom line is that NOBODY is forcing you to read my posts. So skip my posts if you do not like what I have to say.

                  That is all I really have to say about it. This thread is not about me and I don't want it to become about me. And I don't want to waste anymore time getting drug down in to mud addressing posts that are designed to attack my character.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Danielfire View Post
                    Nah, not nice to be a bitch to a newbie like that, particularly one who knows what he is on about and isnt tapping away putting it on this forum for his own benefit. I really hope he comes back.

                    anyway - here is the link to the Iodine adverse reaction article, there are a few articles you could find, but this gives the gist.

                    Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian
                    In the one case they describe that really does not sound like an allergy. They say the man clutched his chest before going unconscious. I would speculate the the sudden surge of iodine over stimulated the thyroid forcing the heart in to hyper drive causing heart failure. And he could have had a weak heart to begin with for all we know.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JamesS View Post
                      Thanks.

                      If you want to post a link to what you want me to respond to specifically I will take a look. My time is really limited and I don't want to spend a lot of time searching through the whole forum.
                      That's OK man, you have given us plenty of information and I am just glad you are back and will be around.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by JamesS View Post
                        In the one case they describe that really does not sound like an allergy. They say the man clutched his chest before going unconscious. I would speculate the the sudden surge of iodine over stimulated the thyroid forcing the heart in to hyper drive causing heart failure. And he could have had a weak heart to begin with for all we know.
                        Interesting take, I will keep an eye out for the formal findings. Thanks again

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by chahaya View Post
                          Just chiming on soy consumption by the Japanese and other Asian cultures. The types of soy that Japanese consume are mostly fermented soy, e.g. natto and miso soup. Even their soya sauce are fermented (it's not just stuff added with salt). They do consume tofu, which is the perhaps the only unfermented soy product that they consume in relatively larger amounts. In other Asian countries, we do consume a form of fermented tofu, fermented beancurd to be exact, it's an acquired taste and it smells funky (and I happen to quite like it). The Indonesians have a soy staple called tempeh (also fermented). The Taiwanese love their stinky tofu (also fermented tofu).

                          Japanese don't really consume soy milk, as far as I recall (visited there twice and my brother used to live there). That said, soy milk is consumed in other Asian countries, e.g. Southeast Asia (we are not known for our longevity like the Japanese, by the way), however it is not something that we drink it everyday. Personally I don't drink it now as it is over-processed commercially, with added sugar and stuff. I do fondly remember my aunt used to make soy milk by grinding a granite mortar in the past.

                          I think the soy usage in Western diets is pretty different. Soy milk is used for everything, and everywhere, and even used as replacement for infant formulas. There's processed (unfermented) soy in everything, e.g. tofu burgers, and the likes. The amount of unfermented soy intake is really high (in comparison to the Japanese). And I don't think fermented soy is consumed much in Western diets. Anyway, I don't know the actual chemical mechanics behind fermented soy and unfermented soy products, I just want to highlight that there's a difference in the types of soy that the Japanese take though.
                          Actually there is not as much difference between fermented soy and processed soy as people think. That is just marketing hype. The compounds that people complain about in unfermented soy such as phytoestrogens, phytic acid, trypsin inhibitors, etc. are not only reduced by fermentation, but also by cooking. Products such as soy milk are subjected to high heat reducing or eliminating these compounds just like fermentation.

                          End of my 2 cents on soy. Now I want to pick your brains for some questions that I have...

                          Originally posted by chahaya View Post
                          You have mentioned that "Estrogen appears to only be a growth factor for already existing cancers", can you shed some light how that works?
                          Simply being exposed to high levels of estrogen will not induce cancers. If that were the case then any woman that has ever been put on ERT for example and all of us that are exposed daily to environmental xenoestrogens that are tens to hundreds of thousands of times stronger than human estrogens would have cancer. Clearly this is not the case. Therefore, the estrogen either has to be a co-factor in the development or a growth factor after the fact.

                          There is evidence that estrogen may be a co-factor in the development of some cancers through the activation of viral oncogenes. These viruses cannot induce cancer on their own though. First of all viruses require sufficient immune suppression to become active and take hold. Secondly they require activators. For example, we have all heard the myth of how sunlight causes skin cancer. Actually sunlight helps produce anti-cancer vitamin D. On the other hand sunlight can also activate HPV in the skin cells activating them inducing carcinogenesis. Therefore, it is the virus that causes the cancer, but they require a "key" (activator) to turn them on to where they can induce carcinogenesis. Another common activator for viral oncogenes are hormones. Progesterone for example activates oncogenic human papilloma viruses (HPVs). HPVs have been found to induce cervical, vaginal, vulvar, breast, penile, prostate, ano-genital, skin, oropharynx, esophageal and laryngo- pharyngeal cancers. Estrogens may also activate some viral oncogenes.

                          As for the role in existing cancers read this site since it gives a pretty good explanation:

                          Estrogen Receptors/SERMs - National Cancer Institute


                          Originally posted by chahaya View Post
                          Would estrogen be a growth factor for cysts and fibroids? Iodine seem to have some good results on FBD specifically; could it be because of its estrogen blocking effects? What advice would you give to someone with FBD and uterine fibroids?
                          Cysts are simply fluid filled sacs so estrogen would not likely play a role here.

                          As far as fibroids, yes they are definitely influenced by estrogen levels. And yes, it is the iodine blocking effects of iodine that allow iodine to help with their reduction. But I have seen some people expand this claim in to this meaning that iodine deficiency is also the cause of fibroids. Just because iodine can help with fibroids this does not mean an iodine deficiency is the cause of the fibroids. This would be like saying just because chemotherapy can help with some cancers that cancer therefore is caused by a lack of chemotherapy.

                          To address fibroids my first suggestion would be to utilize digestive bitters. These are simply bitter tasting herbs, and yes they do have to come in to contact with the tongue to work. When the bitter receptors on the tongue are stimulated this in turn stimulates the vagus nerve. The stimulation of the vagus nerve in turn increases stomach acid, bile secretions and pancreatic enzyme release, which is why they are called digestive bitters. Bitters also increase liver function, and one role of the liver is to break down excess estrogen in the system. This also reduces cholesterol, which is the precursor for hormones. And it is also great for reducing the risk of gallstones, which women are more prone to due to the higher levels of estrogen and progesterone. Anyway, you can buy bitters at any health food store or a pinch of any bitter herb like gentian, or any bitter tasting food like bitter melon will work. If you get bitters at a health food store ignore the directions. They usually recommend a teaspoon of bitters, but many have herbs in them that I would not recommend at that dose such as anthraquinone stimulant laxative and berberine herbs. I recommend a half dropper full on the tongue before meals. Start out with once a day and slowly work up to three times a day. And drink plenty of water throughout the day since stimulation of the vagus nerve will have a strong "cleansing" effect on the body.

                          Bitters also help to reduce body fat, which is also a source of estrogen for the body.

                          My next suggestion would be either increasing your B vitamin intake through food or a B50 complex. Certain B vitamins are required for the process of methylation needed by the liver to break down the excess estrogens. Now the catch. Many people are low on stomach acid as acid levels decline with age. If they are taking antacids, acid blockers (proton pump inhibitors) or alkalinizers such as alkaline waters this can further reduce stomach acid. And if low on stomach acid you will not be able to absorb the B vitamins needed for methylation since these B vitamins are acid dependent for absorption. If you do have low stomach acid then I recommend the beet leaf extract trimethylglycine (TMG), which is a great and safe methyl donor.

                          Something else that can help are cultured foods and fibers to help build up the flora. As the liver breaks down the estrogens in to estrogen metabolites the metabolites are then broken down further by the flora to prevent reabsorption of the metabolites, which can contribute to estrogen load.

                          And since fat cells produce estrogen, if you are overweight losing weight slowly will help. I say "slowly" since rapid weight loss increases the risk of gallstone formation.

                          Originally posted by chahaya View Post
                          Finally, thanks for joining this thread, your recent posts are really interesting!
                          Thanks.

                          Comment


                          • I've just been reading through some of the Iodine info in the link JamesS posted earlier:
                            MedCapsules Forum - Iodine Safety/Issues
                            The paper I'm currently reading is history of excess Iodine side effects:
                            http://www.iodine4health.com/researc...e_toxicity.pdf

                            Well worth going through some of this for anyone contemplating Iodine supplements,
                            there's nothing like being informed, has enlightened me quite a bit.
                            "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                              So, let me get this straight. You would just totally ignore the focus of this thread, iodine, a topic on which we completely agree, and instead have it out with me about some tangent side topics?

                              If you would like to start a "Soy:Is it dangerous or not?", an "Are doctors evil money grubbers?" and a "Chemo: Does it work?" thread, great. I just don't think those should be the focus here.
                              Fine, so start them with your views and I will address them. Just let me know when and where you start the threads so I know you want to discuss these topics and I don't have to search for them. I have not looked around this site other than this thread and will not likely unless I have some spare time.
                              Last edited by JamesS; 08-10-2012, 01:49 AM.

                              Comment


                              • Great to have you here JamesS, much better to read your analysis than doubt whether to follow what is posted by those who shout loudest.

                                I snuck a peak into Curezone and it seems insane!

                                Good to have you part of the discussion, even if I usually just read it rather than engage. What you say makes a lot of sense.

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