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The True Definition of Calories i.e. "Why what you believe is extremist BS"

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  • #61
    Yay! Another thread originating from a false premise

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    • #62
      PaeloBird (in her success story) talked at length about how she realised calories count. There was a post a couple of weeks ago where another poster talked about how she realised the same thing. This isn't exactly a new premise on this forum.

      Obviously eating more calories than you consume will make you put on weight, but it's also more complex than that. There are different kinds of weight to gain.

      The kind of food you eat will effect the kind of weight you put on - whether it's fat, retained water, or muscle. This is a new area, and I don't think much research has been done in it.

      I've been doing research on an already-lean Paleo guy who has been tracking his calories / fat intake rigorously, whilst getting his bloods / weight checked on regular basis. After 28 days on a really high fat diet (VLC, lots of meat, eggs, Greek Yogurt, and nuts) he had lost .8Kg but his jeans were hanging off him. They measured his body fat, and realised he had dropped more than 1%, and had gained muscle (they hooked him up to a special machine to measure this). He was doing a total of 7 mins exercise a week.

      So basically, of course you'll get fat if you overeat all the time, but if you gorge on high protein, high fat foods, you're more likely to put on muscle (to a certain point).
      "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

      In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

      - Ray Peat

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      • #63
        Like it or not, it does all come down to leptin, insulin, thyroid, and other hormones we may not even know about. Years of eating crap ruin a metabolism. Once you get the diet reined in and start eating good, nutritious food, you have a chance at getting the hormones working again. This entails eating congruent with your activity level, exercising smartly, getting good sleep, and well, what the Primal Blueprint says to do.

        In the normal, healthy human, periodic overfeedings are no big deal--the body senses the extra calories and increases metabolic rate during sleep (diet induced thermogenesis). Calories out is autonomic, you don't have to spend an extra hour in the gym when you eat too much. This mechanism is broken in most people eating the SAD.

        It is the constant, non-stop feast that gets us in trouble. Insulin resistance, leptin resistance, poor lipid profiles, fatty liver disease, high blood pressure all result from porr dietary choices, for the most part. Eating real food and throwing in the intermittant fast gets these under control pretty fast for most.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Owly View Post
          Griff left because he felt unwelcome and harassed for not being overly concerned about getting skinny--he'd already achieved his goal of beating type 2 diabetes and being able to walk again, and he felt like he was being attacked for not wanting to force himself to get a lot thinner and asking people to accept that he was pretty happy with where he was.

          He also hated exercise (as others have said here) for specific reasons, although people accused him of doing nothing, which was untrue because I know he walks regularly around campus. He's still doing well and has lost more weight, and I am still in touch with him elsewhere and enjoy seeing his ongoing successes both healthwise and in his academic career.

          I'm sad he's gone. He was really encouraging to other people who were struggling with major health conditions and large amounts of weight to lose, and I thought it was cool to have someone who was really entirely in this to beat a health condition and not get a six pack.

          Oh, and he eats vegetables from what I know of his meals. But I understand why he continues to stay very low carb considering that he is one of those who experienced significant metabolic issues and thus has to deal with things a little differently from those of us who have mainly healthy metabolisms.
          Watching Griff get fat-bashed and bullied off this forum was definitely a low point for me here. He was an adamant low carb proponent and it helped save his life. He was extreme in his opinion, but if he had been thin no one would have bothered him about it at all.

          It was a shame.
          Using low lectin/nightshade free primal to control autoimmune arthritis. (And lost 50 lbs along the way )

          http://www.krispin.com/lectin.html

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          • #65
            Once again, I'll point out that humans have very little conscious control over their caloric intake in the long term. Caloric restriction in the long term has about a 98% failure rate for weight loss, with a large number of people actually gaining more weight back then they lost.

            So suggesting caloric restriction as a method for weight loss is not supported in the real world. People would lose weight if they absorbed less of their food - why not just ask them to do that? It's pretty much the same thing.

            Personally, I have found that satiety is the key to controlling caloric intake naturally. I think this idea is becoming more supported by data and will continue to gain support in the coming years.
            Using low lectin/nightshade free primal to control autoimmune arthritis. (And lost 50 lbs along the way )

            http://www.krispin.com/lectin.html

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Owly View Post
              Griff left because he felt unwelcome and harassed for not being overly concerned about getting skinny--he'd already achieved his goal of beating type 2 diabetes and being able to walk again, and he felt like he was being attacked for not wanting to force himself to get a lot thinner and asking people to accept that he was pretty happy with where he was.

              He also hated exercise (as others have said here) for specific reasons, although people accused him of doing nothing, which was untrue because I know he walks regularly around campus. He's still doing well and has lost more weight, and I am still in touch with him elsewhere and enjoy seeing his ongoing successes both healthwise and in his academic career.

              I'm sad he's gone. He was really encouraging to other people who were struggling with major health conditions and large amounts of weight to lose, and I thought it was cool to have someone who was really entirely in this to beat a health condition and not get a six pack.

              Oh, and he eats vegetables from what I know of his meals. But I understand why he continues to stay very low carb considering that he is one of those who experienced significant metabolic issues and thus has to deal with things a little differently from those of us who have mainly healthy metabolisms.
              It's good to know that he is doing well. The next time you contact him, Owly, please tell him that there are a lot of people here who valued his insights greatly. The way he was treated was shameful and this board is a lesser place without him.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                It's good to know that he is doing well. The next time you contact him, Owly, please tell him that there are a lot of people here who valued his insights greatly. The way he was treated was shameful and this board is a lesser place without him.
                Add me to these sentiments, please!

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                • #68
                  I've found this thread really insightful thanks!

                  There are 3 points I'm taking away from this:
                  1. Calories DO matter
                  2. It's so incredibly hard to determine exactly where the maintenance and deficit zones are (it's not as simple as using an internet formula and even through keeping calories constant for a month and weighing yourself every day you probably won't get an accurate result due to the fact that the scale should not be the only measurement used!)
                  3. Yes, you need to create a calorie deficit to lose weight but it's important that you do this while still consuming real, whole foods.

                  All other points (role of exercise, validity of measurements etc) I think fall under point 2... is there anything I'm forgetting?

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                  • #69
                    it basically says people who are overweight are lazy and gluttonous. Yea, it's not nice, but sugar-coating isn't approved on The Primal Blueprint, so deal with it
                    I think the people who take the most offense are women who have dieted for YEARS and actually can't lose weight with fairly rigorous calorie restriction and exercise. I think there is a lot of common sense, but when you need to eat in the 1200-1400 calorie range to lose, it's really fucking hard and 99% of advice is completely irrelevant. It's like telling someone that makes $800 a month to "skip starbucks" and "bring a sack lunch". Or perhaps "Oh, well just spend $1200 a month, but don't use credit".

                    I *get* that calories matter. I *get* that I need to eat healthy foods and a diet of butter and bacon is not gonna provide me the nutrition I need at such a low calorie count. I just wish there was more advice and acknowledgment (and ideas beyond very low carb) for people like me. The low carbers try and tell me I can eat whatever as long as its fat and protein (not true for me) and the "calorie people" (myself included) assume I just eat more than I know.

                    I think years of caloric restriction does a number on the bodies of women that maybe is not well understood. I'm pretty sure I spent the last 10 years malnourished, I don't expect primal to fix that quickly.... but I see a lot of (mainly women) in the same boat and CICO and low carb really does nothing to help us.

                    http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                    Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Magnolia-

                      If you think 1200 cal is 'hard,' try doing 900 cal to lose. Age and medical issues required that from me, and guess what I discovered? If I'm eating at my body's requirements (rather than what I'd like to be its requirements), I can be satisfied.

                      Was I ever hungry? Yes. But what I discovered is that true, physical hunger is not very uncomfortable. What's difficult are the 'cravings' that we create ourselves in our minds. Once I realized that and learned to control them, eating at a level that allowed me to lose weight was possible.

                      These days I can only eat about 1,100 cal to maintain (my doctor agrees), but, again, my body is totally satisfied with this caloric level. I'm never truly hungry. It's my 'mind' that wants to eat more.

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                      • #71
                        This is a really interesting thread.

                        I agree with the OP, calories do matter and people that use Primal to justify their overeating problems are not going to lose weight/fat.

                        I often get asked for advice as I have lost a considerable amount of body fat (20%+ to 6-8% currently) and I think the following has been important for me personally:

                        Get out of the car and walk where possible - I always walk to the shops (about half a mile away)
                        Train hard or go home - Kettlebells have helped in this regard
                        Eat clean food where possible - limit processed food.
                        limit carbs to a hand size portion on the plate and fill with protein and veggies
                        use fasting as a tool to break plateaus - i use leangains
                        If you want something to eat, eat it and then get back on it the next day. This becomes rarer the further down the line you are but its important to give your body what it wants sometimes.

                        I don't have the scientific backup others do but this has worked for me and my OH who has gone from a size 14 to size 6/8.

                        It is out there if you want it but there are no shortcuts. It was a change in lifestyle for me. People still laugh at me because I don't eat bread but I don't sweat it. I know I am buying years on my life. I want to be here for a good time and a long time
                        2010 - 5,11 and 101KG

                        2012 - 5,11 and 77KG

                        Train hard, eat well and love life

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                        • #72
                          Fat people aren't lazy and gluttonous just like alcoholics don't lack self control. There are reasons why some people can stop after a few drinks and others can't stop until they are far too drunk for their own good...and its not self control, it has to do with their brain chemistry. And the same applies for someone that can eat just a couple cookies and not think twice about as opposed to someone that says "I am just going to have a couple cookies" and then eats the whole box. There is a LOT more to it than just being lazy and gluttonous...obestity, in my opinion, has a lot more to do with how someone's brain works and how it drives them to eat.

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                          • #73
                            Get out of the car and walk where possible - I always walk to the shops (about half a mile away)
                            Train hard or go home - Kettlebells have helped in this regard
                            Eat clean food where possible - limit processed food.
                            limit carbs to a hand size portion on the plate and fill with protein and veggies
                            use fasting as a tool to break plateaus - i use leangains
                            If you want something to eat, eat it and then get back on it the next day. This becomes rarer the further down the line you are but its important to give your body what it wants sometimes.
                            I wish this worked for me.

                            And yes, 900 calories would suck. How active are you? I think a lot of my issue is that exercise doesn't help anymore. I don't know if I am just efficient or what? I do the weights, but cardio gets me no where.

                            I actually worry about the future- and getting to a point where I can only have 800 or 900 calories a day. It's depressing. I've stalled and have maintained very well on about 1400 calories a day plus 3x a week bodyweight and other random exercise. However, that was the level I was losing at. I'd hate to have to go to 1200 to maintain and then 1000.... and so on. With about 30 lbs. to lose, it's a depressing thought.

                            It sucks to skim out healthy food. Now I'm looking at one fruit a day instead of two. Eliminated chocolate, next up is the coffee. Don't eat excess fat. The only large portions are protein- but the advice is to get what, 1 gram per pound of lean body mass- most days I don't come close. And this is with 30lbs to lose (and it's legit- 184- 155 is my goal... only 5'6 so I have obvious fat to lose). It seems like every 10 lbs I need to cut another 200 calories to lose.

                            Personally, I don't think it's MDA's role to fix me. But damn I wish someone would do more research into people who struggle to lose weight despite following CICO and eating healthy foods. It's like there is zero help. I think people here *get it* and are actually pretty understanding compared to the wonderful MD's.... (skip the fast food and walk..... said to a marathoner vegetarian).

                            It's sucky to work hard at something and not succeed.... and it smarts a bit more when people assume you are not actually trying. I think that attitude turns off a lot of people.

                            http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                            Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              There are reasons why some people can stop after a few drinks and others can't stop until they are far too drunk for their own good...and its not self control, it has to do with their brain chemistry
                              Again, not for everyone..... What about people who can and do control what they eat- there are probably 10 people here off hand I can think of that comply quite well and aren't out of control. Hell I used to do that- eliminated wheat, problem solved.

                              It's like I've gotten everywhere but increasing or stabilizing my metabolism. As an active 5'6 woman I don't think it's in my best interest to just keep cutting calories to lose. I already struggle to get in the rec'd protein within the calorie range I can eat. I guess I can do the chicken breast 3x a day.... but to me that seems like a diet deficient in a lot.

                              http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                              Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by gopintos View Post
                                Ok, thought of some gnawing questions. I am sure already answered in other threads but I havent really found my answers.

                                But if CICO is the thing, what is everyone's take on the following:

                                Does it matter when you consume them? Some say 1) Eat breakfast first thing. Jump start your metabolism. Some say 2) Eat smaller more frequently, keep your metabolism revved. Some say 3)Dont eat often, don't snack. But what difference does it make at the end of the day so long as you have a deficit?

                                Hitting you "macros" at the end of the day is really what matters....and calories. Read the three part IF primer from PKLOPP to understand that just doing IF and not changing caloric NOR macro breakdown causes significant physiological change (in a good way).

                                Also - dont go too low on calories. You go into starvation mode? wth is that anyways? Seems like the tooth fairy to me. Good idea on paper but for what purpose, I mean seems to me like one of 3 things. 1. Eat enough to just maintain 2. Eat too much and store the excess 3. Dont eat enough and you lose by pulling from the reserves. If you arent eating enough, then the body is suppose to live on it's reserve right? It makes no sense to me that the body would store fat for a rainy day, but then go into starvation mode and not use it when it is starts to rain. Nothing scientific, just my line of thinking. So it seems to me like, going too low is a non-issue. Now, I get that you arent getting enough nutrients but if you supplement, then if weight loss is the goal, it should be okay until you reach maintenance, shouldnt it? Yet one of the first things ppl say when you plateau is you are probably not eating enough.

                                Yes, starvation mode is kinda bunk and kinda not. Your metabolism WILL slow as you significantly restrict calories. Not to the point that you will magically gain weight though. This starvation mode thing is more important to those who start freaking out about being cold while losing weight and end up doing silly stuff like eating pure sugar to boost their metabolism. The real thing to be sure of is that you get adequate nutrition at the very low calories, which means eating nutrient dense foods

                                Or they say you should exercise more. But then ppl say it is mostly about nutrition, not about exercise. But if the activity creates a bigger deficit, seems like it should have a direct impact. Like on BL and they exercise 8 hours a day or whatever. It is just when I exercise more, I get more hungry so it seems counterproductive for weight loss. I do understand there are many other benefits but I am just talking about the calories thing.

                                Exercise has physiological benefit, but as far as weight loss.....not so much.

                                So eating too few brings me to restricted calories vs. fasting. Some say dont restrict too low, but fasting is okay. Does fasting then really work for weight loss? I mean if at the end of the day you consume 1200 calories, does the body care whether you eat 100 calories 12 times a day, or one big 1200 meal. Does it care if you eat every other day and have 2400 calories when the window opens? Does it care if you eat before midnight, after midnight?

                                See answer about IF above

                                And it seems to me like if it is CICO, why do we have/need a carb curve? Why do we care about macros at all. I get that some macros are more satiating than others, so choose wisely, make it count. I use to drink a gallon of sweet tea a day, 300 grams of sugar. 1000 calories if I figured correctly. If I only drank sweet tea along with my supplements, would I lose weight yes, because it was 1000 calories thus creating a deficit, or no because it was 300 grams of carbs?

                                Because carbs DO matter. The ones that matter most are the refined and processesed sort though. You can lose weight eating SAD high carb. The question is what works better for metabolic and physiologic health as you lose weight? There is a difference between healthy metabolic use of carbohydrate and unhealthy. Some of it is genetic predisposition and some is past damage from a SAD life. But, if you should you have to reduce your fruit intake.....or sweet potato....those are personal N=1 matters.

                                CICO is confusing. Seems like it should be so simple. I guess I should read the whole article. Maybe it is outlined there.
                                See above in bold
                                Last edited by Neckhammer; 07-26-2012, 05:51 AM.

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