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The True Definition of Calories i.e. "Why what you believe is extremist BS"

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  • Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
    I think there's some other reason. I mean, it really did something that fasting all by itself doesn't seem to do for me.
    It may be that the higher fat content in your morning is pushing you rapidly into ketosis.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by sakura_girl View Post
      I don't think so. I just think he unloads a necessarily large load of information and ranting on someone a newbie who is asking for details in a simple question. Sometimes said person also may be metabolically/psychologically damaged, something he often overlooks when he is posting. But otherwise I find his posts very informative and meaningful.
      Agreed.

      Choco's efforts in self-experimentation show a natural flair for scientific investigation, which no amount of rhetoric can convincingly dismiss. They ring true for me.

      Asserting that his arguments are full of shit without bothering to make any attempt to deconstruct them is extremely lazy IMO.
      F 5 ft 3. HW: 196 lbs. Primal SW (May 2011): 182 lbs (42% BF)... W June '12: 160 lbs (29% BF) (UK size 12, US size 8). GW: ~24% BF - have ditched the scales til I fit into a pair of UK size 10 bootcut jeans. Currently aligning towards 'The Perfect Health Diet' having swapped some fat for potatoes.

      Comment


      • Here's the deal, I've been 90% Paleo since March 4th of 2012. My weight was 213 lbs. on that date and I now weigh 169. In the beginning I did not track calories, just ate Paleo and my weight dropped at about 2 lbs per week. As a curiosity mostly, I started using the Livestrong Myplate program to see where my daily net calories and carb grams were at. Surprise, surprise my carbs were between 75 and 100 grams per day and my net calories (after exercise) averaged about 1500 per day. With a BMR around 2200 initially going down to 1949 calories currently, it predicted a weight loss of one to two pounds per week - exactly what I averaged. Calories and carb grams do count, Primal/Paleo based exercise is important and adding tools like Intermittent fasting do work.
        Recent Blog: http://www.peakperformanceradio.net/...y-john-saville

        https://www.facebook.com/PaleoJourne...?ref=bookmarks

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Leida View Post
          ~ 780 cals in 7 hours (so round up to 800 cals because we tend to understimate). Exercise: 40 or so min brisk walk at +10 degrees weather in short sleeves and shorts (~ 50 F, so some termic effect), some movement/standing when cooking stuff + around the office estimated expenditure, maybe 100 cals? Plus, from body functioning for 6 hours, based on 1300 BMR: 325 cals. In other words, I am 400 cals ahead on the intake than on the burn, and I am not feeling ideal or full on the fat fast. I am not ravenous, but my stomach is starting to feel upset and I am starting to feel tired & cranky & empty
          You've burnt ~400 calories in exercise in addition to a BMR of 1300, so 1700 calories total (though I bet any money you burnt closer to 2000 calories today between daily life and exercise).
          And you've only eaten 800 calories... so a 1200 calorie deficit. And you are wondering why you feel tired, cranky and empty??????

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
            It may be that the higher fat content in your morning is pushing you rapidly into ketosis.
            Could be. I eat so relatively high carb nowadays I wonder how easy it is for me to get into ketosis. Nevertheless, it was definitely a hack. A non-fast with all the side benefits of fasting and no hunger. A non-meal that quelled my morning hunger on fewer calories than a real meal and left me feeling super amazing like a real fast. I can see why the bulletproof exec recommends this. I can't see anything wrong with using it as a way to get a little edge once in a while. I am intrigued now by a four-yolk coffee. I might have to try that some day. Can't right now because all our eggs have names (came from chicken pets so these are Henrietta's eggs, these are Edwina's eggs, etc.) Too special.
            Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
              Ah, but the bulletproof coffee did not interfere with the benefits of fasting. Plus I woke up hungry and had I fasted I would have had to whiteknuckle my way through it and probably would not have been able to sit through breakfast without eating or wanting to eat. I guess most people want to turn off their minds rather than actually try something and see what it does.
              My bad Sbhikes...... I thought u meant bulletproof coffee has that unique effect, I see what u mean now.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Hawkward View Post
                Apparently consuming fat doesn't affect the fast, but carbs and protein do.
                Be right back, going to eat a tub of lard and wonder why I'm getting fat on a fast...
                http://stackingplates.com/

                Comment


                • Originally posted by StackingPlates View Post
                  Be right back, going to eat a tub of lard and wonder why I'm getting fat on a fast...
                  I think the idea is that consuming fat doesn't affect all the "cellular housecleaning" effects of a fast. Though the bulletproof exec does have posts about a protocol in which you subsist on fats for a few days, then have a day with a ton of carbs, and keep doing this until you've lost all the weight you want. You still eat your normal amount of calories that way (though you overeat on the carb day).

                  I have only done water fasts, so I have no experience with this, but it's interesting.

                  Comment


                  • You've burnt ~400 calories in exercise in addition to a BMR of 1300, so 1700 calories total (though I bet any money you burnt closer to 2000 calories today between daily life and exercise).
                    Except for she probably didn't burn that amount- if your metabolism slows, you burn less and I am going to bet you become a more efficient exerciser.

                    That's the hard part- how much did I burn and the calculators are not accurate or I'd have weighed 100 lbs 6 years ago.

                    And this is random- but I have eliminated night shades in the past 10 days. I feel better, no heartburn. Plus about 3 lbs have eased off, pushing below my stall weight at a time of the month when I retain water. CICO, makes sense, generally works, but if its not there are other things that impact your weight like food allergies etc. I could have beat myself up a few more months and eventually given up unsure why eating healthy foods stopped working, but thatnks to tracking and an ability/knowledge that things other than CICO may play a role, I found a solution. Am I bummed not to eat a tomato/avocado/chicken/bacon salad, yeah. But I'm glad I know its the tomato making me feel like ass and hold onto weight.

                    Overall, we just (as a society) view fat=lack of control. I wonder 1. how many people are grain addicts and sugar addicts 2. How many are bloated due to dairy etc. etc. and maybe if we actually tested fat people for something OTHER than willpower they might have a better chance. I can tell you eliminating wheat made eating life easier for me. How many other fat people just need to chuck that too? And if they had evidence they had an issue, they might be more willing.

                    http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                    Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

                    Comment


                    • Other things that affect weight loss tremendously in my opinion:

                      - snacking/frequent small meals. This has a negative effect.
                      - eating large meals infrequently. This has a positive effect.
                      - chronic undereating. Might not cause weight gain but does mess up a lot of women's relationship to food.
                      - chronic, excessive low-grade cardio. This has a negative effect for some people or after a certain amount of time. It did for me.
                      - short, explosive exercises such as sprinting. This seems to have a positive effect of at least stimulating certain beneficial hormones.
                      - undersleeping. Negative hormonally and also if you are really tired you tend to eat more or eat more of the things you shouldn't.

                      I also wonder if there is a negative effect to eating more food volume than you need, in other words, eating until you are uncomfortably stuffed, even if the calorie count of the food is within your range. I think there might be hormonal effects to this that are not positive, but it's only speculation on my part.
                      Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

                      Comment


                      • I'm just going to throw out some observations I've made from changing things up in my diet. Things that have helped me stay lean and gain muscle.

                        Sleep: I've been going to bed earlier and getting 7-9 hours of sleep consistently. I can't say with certainty, but this is most likely the biggest health related improvement I've made. Muscle mass is packing on, the fat is staying off, and I feel great.

                        Fasting: I fast 16 hours on workout days and up to 18-19 hours on rest days with two large meals each day. Huge benefits to muscle gain and fat loss.

                        Less fat: I still eat all the good paleo fats, but I no longer "add" them to my foods. I'll cook with them but I don't eat them for the sake of eating them or use them as a condiment. I find eating a little leaner combined with potatoes/berries/rice has helped my satiety greatly.

                        Heavy lifting: I lift consistently about every other day. I'm just going to say that I can't believe I considered myself Primal before doing any lifting. Deadlifts, squats, clean and jerk, snatch, pullups, etc. have become an obsession.
                        Last edited by Eric5105; 08-04-2012, 09:00 AM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
                          Other things that affect weight loss tremendously in my opinion:

                          - snacking/frequent small meals. This has a negative effect.
                          - eating large meals infrequently. This has a positive effect.
                          - chronic undereating. Might not cause weight gain but does mess up a lot of women's relationship to food.
                          - chronic, excessive low-grade cardio. This has a negative effect for some people or after a certain amount of time. It did for me.
                          - short, explosive exercises such as sprinting. This seems to have a positive effect of at least stimulating certain beneficial hormones.
                          - undersleeping. Negative hormonally and also if you are really tired you tend to eat more or eat more of the things you shouldn't.

                          I also wonder if there is a negative effect to eating more food volume than you need, in other words, eating until you are uncomfortably stuffed, even if the calorie count of the food is within your range. I think there might be hormonal effects to this that are not positive, but it's only speculation on my part.
                          +1. Although CICO is definitely a contibutor to weight loss or gain, its definitely not the only aspect and for a lot of people is secondary to hormonal imbalances. Surprisingly the majority of us do have hormonal imbalances. Some less than others but the fact that we are exposed to so many different chemicals everyday, its virtually impossible to continue with optimal hormone levels from birth to death.

                          We are constantly exposed to things that lower our testosterone levels, and raise our estrogen levels. Stress from daily life raises our cortisol and sugars cause insulin fluctuation. There are many other hormones that are effected as well but I'm going to stick with the basics here.

                          I work with people everyday that have these imbalances across all fitness levels from hockey players to a little person who has a titanium rod fusing her back between her shoulder blades to her lower back. I work with each and everyone of them to try and get their hormones back in line prior to any suggestion of caloric deficit. Reason being with out individual optimal hormonal response, the body will not react to a caloric deficit with out over compensation. Thats why I dont think I've ever suggested a caloric deficit. Once the hormones are in line the brain/body no longer feel the need to over eat. I'm speculating though.

                          Thats been my experience over years of study, training people and personal experimentation. If someone who has worked with 100's of real people, and has found success using a different method, I am all ears and would be more than happy to see how your methods work. Just like most here, I want to learn too. I want to be the best trainer that I can be. I love the look I get when another client reaches their goal. Its the best feeling in the world.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by magnolia1973 View Post
                            Except for she probably didn't burn that amount- if your metabolism slows, you burn less and I am going to bet you become a more efficient exerciser.

                            That's the hard part- how much did I burn and the calculators are not accurate or I'd have weighed 100 lbs 6 years ago.

                            And this is random- but I have eliminated night shades in the past 10 days. I feel better, no heartburn. Plus about 3 lbs have eased off, pushing below my stall weight at a time of the month when I retain water. CICO, makes sense, generally works, but if its not there are other things that impact your weight like food allergies etc. I could have beat myself up a few more months and eventually given up unsure why eating healthy foods stopped working, but thatnks to tracking and an ability/knowledge that things other than CICO may play a role, I found a solution. Am I bummed not to eat a tomato/avocado/chicken/bacon salad, yeah. But I'm glad I know its the tomato making me feel like ass and hold onto weight.

                            Overall, we just (as a society) view fat=lack of control. I wonder 1. how many people are grain addicts and sugar addicts 2. How many are bloated due to dairy etc. etc. and maybe if we actually tested fat people for something OTHER than willpower they might have a better chance. I can tell you eliminating wheat made eating life easier for me. How many other fat people just need to chuck that too? And if they had evidence they had an issue, they might be more willing.
                            Alergies are a major contributing factor to weight gain. Thats why for a large segment of people that switch from SAD to paleo see huge weight loss almost instantly. Most of us have some sort of intolerance to grains which causes systemic inflamation. This inflamation is FAR more determental to our health than a few extra pounds.

                            Good on you for self experimentation and finding what works for your body. Most could learn a lot by doing this.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Hawkward View Post
                              I don't put butter in my coffee (don't even drink coffee), but I think reason people do that rather than eating eggs or something else is that they're IF'ing (16 hour fast each day, with all meals in an 8 hour window). Apparently consuming fat doesn't affect the fast, but carbs and protein do. I don't know if the Bulletproof Coffee or other fat consumption is just to tide them over until the 8 hour eating window begins, or if there's some other reason for it.
                              Huh?

                              Fasting

                              Fasting is voluntarily not eating food for varying lengths of time. Fasting is used as a medical therapy for many conditions. It is also a spiritual practice in many religions.

                              Fasting - definition of Fasting in the Medical dictionary - by the Free Online Medical Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
                              If you are consuming calories, you are not fasting. They aren't IF'ing if they are drinking butter in their coffee. There is no such thing as "bulletproof fasting." It is a marketing term. It's no different than me finding a guy named Jack Vegetarian, starting a slaughterhouse called Vegetarian Farms and selling the product as Vegetarian Beef on the shelves. It's just a name.

                              If you are consuming calories, you are not fasting. So eat eggs or meat or vegetables or fruit or potatoes or almonds or salmon or any other conceivable kind of real food. If you're going to eat breakfast, eat a real breakfast and stop drinking butter. Butter is not real food, it is a byproduct of food that comes from another species not designed by nature to be ingested by humans. Honey is closer to real food than butter. Would you eat an entire jar of honey for breakfast? I'm guessing no.
                              Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Iron Will View Post
                                with out individual optimal hormonal response, the body will not react to a caloric deficit with out over compensation.
                                And I think this is the crux of the disagreement over CICO. It is not that straightforward. If you are hormonally messed up you need to fix that first and then CICO will work.

                                I believe that is why before primal I could no longer lose weight through exercise (CO). After trying many things, only low carb turned off my over compensating hunger long enough I could even reasonably address the CI side of the equation. And it also probably explains why it took me 5 weeks of low carb primal highly nutritious food before any weight shifted for me at all, despite continuing to jog every day and hike every weekend. Heck, the weight didn't start coming off until I stopped jogging. Everything had to turn on its head for me to lose weight. Now things work fairly more straightforward for me.
                                Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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