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The True Definition of Calories i.e. "Why what you believe is extremist BS"

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  • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    Where did I insist my way is the only way? This entire thread is about personal experimentation - not relying on some TDEE number an equation gives you on a website. You're so hellbent on tearing me down you're not reading the context of anything I'm writing. Sit back, relax and take your emotions out of the equation. This is what was said:

    1.) In order to lose weight, you must burn more calories than you consume.
    2.) CICO is perfect, but the methods of calculating CI and CO are not. You may not fit into the paradigm.
    3.) Create consistent habits and find a level of food restriction that allows you to drop the weight sustainably.
    4.) Focus on eating real, whole, unprocessed foods to support your metabolism as best as possible while providing proper nutrition while on a deficit. Don't focus on snake oil sales tactics like cold thermogenesis or drinking sticks of butter.

    What, exactly, do you disagree with? And how is this "my way" when it's you specifically tailoring a plan for yourself?
    IMO that is all great basic info...
    But then when someone states that there are benefits to Low carb... (Did you note that in my post I said, "Regardless of some mysterious 'metabolic advantage', or not, its easy to see that LC diets to tend to promote weight loss over and above LCal/LF diets over time."), you get a bit nuts with the Fat=Sugar bit, and the ONLY important factor ever is protein.

    That's just not true, and it makes you sound a bit off the rails.
    For many people consuming more fat keeps them on the diet longer and helps them lose more weight, as I stated in , my post where you only chose to respond to the one small summative quote.
    And for many people eating low fat and high carb makes them more hungry... defeating the diet.
    There are benefits to fat. Eating fat is necessary: fat soluble vitamins.
    I have also stated that calories are important several times... you skipped that too.
    Calories being equal LC/MC wins because more (not ALL) people can stick to it instead of just quitting from hunger.

    As far as adding fats... really what is the problem? If the person doesn't wish to eat large volumes of food for a specific reason, or cannot, it's vastly better than sugar. Eating a similar caloric amount of refined sugar can cause headaches, hypoglycemic cashes, and increased binge behavior in many people. Fat =/= sugar no matter how much you like to say it does, because the body does not process and react to it the same way.

    As I said before... instead of taking these hard lined approaches and making over simplified statements that discount important factors in the process of dieting, actually posting information that helps people understand how EACH of the mechanisms, Protein/Fat/Carbohydrate, individually may affect their diet and appetite would be helpful.
    Last edited by cori93437; 08-02-2012, 12:22 PM.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
    ~Friedrich Nietzsche
    And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

    Comment


    • I think Choco is taking everything on the stance that the person who is dieting is already relatively healthy, has a small amount of weight to lose, and has no metabolic/psychological issues. And probably works out to boot.

      So you're both really just arguing for different sides of the coin, really.
      My chocolatey Primal journey

      Unusual food recipes (plus chocolate) blog

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      • Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
        You know you bullet proof coffee people are going to get fat off all those empty calories, don't you. Thanks for proving me wrong that there actually are people who do it. I've never had the courage to try quite that much butter myself.
        Lots of people can even get away with it if it satiates them enough to create an energy deficit at the end of the day, but the "why aren't I losing weight?" threads I see from bulletproof coffee drinkers just make me facepalm. Whole foods are almost always more satiating calorie per calorie, which is a pretty big deal if you're trying to lose weight. That's not even taking into account nutrient density.

        Originally posted by Kingofturtles View Post
        if you eat clean cals your body mainatains itself. Read the link.
        Come on, that's ridiculous. You're metabolism doesn't magically ramp itself up to burn off hundreds of calories if the food happen to be better quality.
        You might have a difficult time stepping over into the morbidly obese category on whole foods but excess get stored just as easily.
        The Carb-Sane Asylum: Is it Possible? "Smarter Science" worse than "Good" Science Journalism?

        I think the only groups that try to argue calories don't count and their diet holds some of magical properties that makes you lose weight regardless of calories consumed are Raw foodists and low carb zealots. Although the raw foodists may actually have some of valididty to their claims because it could debated that copious amounts of raw food may not get fully digested, but I think it remains to be proven.
        Last edited by Forgotmylastusername; 08-03-2012, 12:34 AM.

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        • Originally posted by Forgotmylastusername View Post
          Although the raw foodists may actually have some of valididty to their claims because it could debated that copious amounts of raw food may not get fully digested, but I think it remains to be proven.
          But undigested calories have to be counted as calories out. That's why this entire debate is so stupid. It's not a question of violating the laws of thermodynamics, it's a problem of measuring and of dependent variables.

          We can (and do) argue about how dependent the variables are (I'm personally in the "VERY" camp), but to say "Calories don't count" is like saying "Michael Jordan defies gravity." It's metaphor or hyperbole or some other literary device (allegory? onomotopoeia?), but nobody actually claims that you store less energy by having inputs greater than outputs.
          The Champagne of Beards

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          • I usually have a massive lunch around 12-1 PM and the most i will have before a very heavy lifting session is a coffee. I usually do get quite starving toward the end of the workout though.

            Comment


            • Threads like these make me take random sabbaticals from this forum, and move onto more important matters....*yawn..*
              If you have a problem with what you read: 1. Get a dictionary 2. Don't read it 3. Grow up 4. After 3, go back to 1/ or 2. -- Dennis Blue. | "I don't care about your opinion, only your analysis"- Professor Calabrese. | "Life is more important than _______" - Drew | I eat animals that eat vegetables -- Matt Millen, former NFL Linebacker. | "This country is built on sugar & shit that comes in a box marinated in gluten - abc123

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              • Threads like this have inspired me to try the 400 calorie version of bullet proof coffee this morning. It doesn't taste much different than the sub-200 calorie version. I'll see how much staying power it has by mid-morning, after a nice bike ride into work and everything.
                Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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                • omg I tried the "bulletproof coffee" thanks to this thread today, I have NEVER been so hungry in my life. I have been sitting comfortable skipping breakfast for a month now and having lunch at noon.

                  Now I have eating a breakfast bar (the only thing I could find in one of my desks)

                  NEVER AGAIN>

                  Comment


                  • This thread is inspiring, eh. (Giggle) and I decided to be lazy and not pack food, so I am going to see yet again how long I will last on butter & cheese & nuts breakfast and coconut oil afterwards. My money is on: "Running to Safeway to get greens and shrimp/eggs/any other PROTEIN, NOW!". But I have been increasing my fat over time, so maybe I can do coconut oil till 2:30 pm. So far, I have had my breakky at 4:30-is, and a few nuts about 6 am after I got to the office, and it is 9 am, and my hunger have not exceeded my aversion to coconut oil yet.
                    My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                    When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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                    • Originally posted by lssanjose View Post
                      Threads like these make me take random sabbaticals from this forum, and move onto more important matters....*yawn..*
                      +1....probably the most healthy advise in this thread.

                      Comment


                      • Okay, it's 11 am. I have had some more coconut oil (maybe half tbsp to 1 tbsp total), 4 Brazil nuts and 3 macadamia nuts. I am hungry, antsy and ready to give up. My body just does not interpret pure fat as food. I want meat. Because it's only 3 hrs to go, and it is quiet in the office I am going to stick it out in hopes to get satiation effect everybody raves about yet. But if it is not happening, I am going to get something real on the way to daughter's concert.
                        My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                        When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by cori93437 View Post
                          IMO that is all great basic info...
                          But then when someone states that there are benefits to Low carb... (Did you note that in my post I said, "Regardless of some mysterious 'metabolic advantage', or not, its easy to see that LC diets to tend to promote weight loss over and above LCal/LF diets over time."), you get a bit nuts with the Fat=Sugar bit, and the ONLY important factor ever is protein.
                          There is no inherent advantage to low carb. If you have better success on a low carbohydrate diet, it's because you find the food choices sustainable and you can be happy living on a caloric deficit eating those foods. Low carbohydrate gives you better food choices than low fat - this is true. Steak, eggs, chicken, bacon, salad, etc. Low carbohydrate also doesn't have the frankenfood market that low fat has (yet), so low carbohydrate diets tend to have better food choices, even if only accidentally. But there are personal preferences. You can take a lower fat/higher carb approach, or a moderate fat/moderate carb approach (as I do) and be just as successful. IMO, moderate/moderate is best because it gives you the most choices and I enjoy variety. But again, it's a question of sustainability, not metabolic advantage.

                          Originally posted by cori93437 View Post
                          That's just not true, and it makes you sound a bit off the rails.
                          For many people consuming more fat keeps them on the diet longer and helps them lose more weight, as I stated in , my post where you only chose to respond to the one small summative quote.
                          And for many people eating low fat and high carb makes them more hungry... defeating the diet.
                          There are benefits to fat. Eating fat is necessary: fat soluble vitamins.
                          I have also stated that calories are important several times... you skipped that too.
                          Calories being equal LC/MC wins because more (not ALL) people can stick to it instead of just quitting from hunger.

                          As far as adding fats... really what is the problem? If the person doesn't wish to eat large volumes of food for a specific reason, or cannot, it's vastly better than sugar. Eating a similar caloric amount of refined sugar can cause headaches, hypoglycemic cashes, and increased binge behavior in many people. Fat =/= sugar no matter how much you like to say it does, because the body does not process and react to it the same way.
                          Calorically, fat = sugar. You have to burn what you ingest before you tap into fat stores, so as far as your body is concerned it doesn't really matter. And how is fat inherently healthier than sugar? Maple syrup and honey are healthier than soybean and canola oil. Sweet potatoes are more nutrient-dense than almonds. Blackstrap molasses is far more nutritious than butter. Fruits are easier to digest than vegetables. This isn't about fats versus sugars. It's about individual food choices, and choosing an apple instead of an avocado is not a poorer choice. In fact, you'll lose weight faster choosing the apple because it has half the calories.

                          Originally posted by cori93437 View Post
                          As I said before... instead of taking these hard lined approaches and making over simplified statements that discount important factors in the process of dieting, actually posting information that helps people understand how EACH of the mechanisms, Protein/Fat/Carbohydrate, individually may affect their diet and appetite would be helpful.
                          What am I oversimplifying? To lose weight, you need a calorie deficit. Achieve it using nutritious, whole foods. It IS that simple. You're trying to blur the line by making everyone's weight loss struggle some rare genetic condition. This should be fun, not miserable.
                          Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 08-03-2012, 10:08 AM.
                          Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Leida View Post
                            Okay, it's 11 am. I have had some more coconut oil (maybe half tbsp to 1 tbsp total), 4 Brazil nuts and 3 macadamia nuts. I am hungry, antsy and ready to give up. My body just does not interpret pure fat as food. I want meat. Because it's only 3 hrs to go, and it is quiet in the office I am going to stick it out in hopes to get satiation effect everybody raves about yet. But if it is not happening, I am going to get something real on the way to daughter's concert.
                            What are you trying to accomplish? Oil isn't food. What is this?
                            Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Leida View Post
                              Okay, it's 11 am. I have had some more coconut oil (maybe half tbsp to 1 tbsp total), 4 Brazil nuts and 3 macadamia nuts. I am hungry, antsy and ready to give up. My body just does not interpret pure fat as food. I want meat. Because it's only 3 hrs to go, and it is quiet in the office I am going to stick it out in hopes to get satiation effect everybody raves about yet. But if it is not happening, I am going to get something real on the way to daughter's concert.
                              Is this a joke? You ate 7 nuts and a half tbsp of oil and you're blaming the fat for making you hungry?

                              Also, nuts aren't pure fat. (Brazil nuts are about 85% and macadamias 88).

                              You're hungry because you're starving yourself. I'd be hungry if I ate ~250 calories regardless of the macronutrient breakdown.
                              The Champagne of Beards

                              Comment


                              • So far so good on the 400+ calorie bulletproof coffee this morning. I really ate super high nutrient-wise yesterday and probably too high calorie-wise, so I don't think it's an overall negative to have tried the bulletproof coffee today. Rode my bike to work, sat through a breakfast meeting without eating, it's already 11am. I might go sprinting this afternoon before lunch. I'll probably decide to have lunch, but we'll see.

                                Sometimes finally getting a big fat bomb turns off the appetite for a while. Sometimes it doesn't. Turning off my appetite really improves my quality of life. If only potatoes and apples did the same thing, I would eat big potato bombs instead. But they don't. Big meat bombs sometimes do, but not fruit and starch.
                                Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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