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The True Definition of Calories i.e. "Why what you believe is extremist BS"

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  • The only method to keep the weight off/maintain that works is trying to lose more weight.
    My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
    When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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    • Originally posted by Leida View Post
      The only method to keep the weight off/maintain that works is trying to lose more weight.
      That is the most depressing statement of the day for people who have always been fat .

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Lawyerchick12 View Post
        and how did you overcome said set point or did you eventually overcome it?
        I do not know that I have overcome it. I recently lost about 5lbs through extreme low carb/low calorie plus moderate carb and extreme exercise. But it remains to be seen if that's my new set-point or if going back to my regular life, I gain it all back again. We'll see.

        One thing is true. My sister and I grew up in the same family in the same food culture, pre-HFCS, back in the day when moms still cooked, packed lunches and sewed our clothes. She was always bony skinny, little knee bones poking out of her tiny legs. I always had a protruding belly and plenty of cushioning although I would not say I was obese or fat like kids are today. Just not a knock-kneed scrawny kid. She was scrawny and I was plump and we ate the same foods. On Primal, losing my excess weight back to my cushiony former self has been easy. I do not think it would be possible for me to reach the levels of thinness my own sister has been able to attain throughout her life. Not without a fight and not sustainably.

        I guess I do not subscribe to any idea that you can force your body to attain a certain level of thinness and keep it there if it's unnatural to you. If you try, you will start engaging yourself in a fight that you will lose one way or another.
        Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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        • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
          You and I are agreeing way too much way too often there days and it's starting to concern me
          .


          Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
          As it stands now, I'm much more moderated in my approach.
          This is why.

          Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
          In short:
          CICO = perfect.
          Methods of calculating CICO = horribly flawed.

          The theory is perfect, but we lack the tools to fully understand it. That is why we must self-experiment. We need to find our individual maintenance calories. The only way to do this is to log precisely every bite of food into your mouth and eat the exact same things over and over until you find the appropriate level.
          I don't think you really need to eat the same thing all the time but I agree with careful tracking.

          I think bemoaning the flaws and failings of quantifying calories is often just an excuse for people to avoid dealing with reality.

          Originally posted by Hawkward View Post
          I'm planning to invest in an ice cream maker soon, but in the mean time I'll try out the Haggen-Dazs 5. Judging by the amount of sugar per serving I'm guessing it will be a little sweeter than I like (never have been a big sweet fan), but the ingredient list looks great!
          I just put frozen fruit and raw cream together in the Vitamix. Delicious and not too sweet.

          Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
          I do not know that I have overcome it. I recently lost about 5lbs through extreme low carb/low calorie plus moderate carb and extreme exercise. But it remains to be seen if that's my new set-point or if going back to my regular life, I gain it all back again. We'll see.
          I feel like I have found a new setpoint. I think it does take consciously maintaining for a while at the lower level but the old bod does adjust.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Glockin Grok View Post
            That is the most depressing statement of the day for people who have always been fat .
            There are a few things that are depressing for those of us that have had this battle all our lives. One is that fat children have more fat cells than thin children. Once your caregivers let you become a fat child, they pretty much put this burden on you. There is the size of fat cells and there is the number of fat cells. Like every organism, a fat cell wants to live and get bigger and bigger. If the number of fat cells you have is greater than a thin person's, you have more of a struggle.

            Another is an effective metabolism. I read this a long time ago. If you take normal weight people and overweight people, and put them in an overeating situation (like a party, for eg.), the normal weight people's metabolism cranks up a bit to burn the excess fuel, while the overweight people's metabolism doesn't or doesn't as much. (I think Mark may have addressed this somewhere as well, but I'm not sure.)

            So yes, if you've had this fight, it will probably always be a struggle. But it won't be impossible. And people who have never had a weight problem will never understand, sometimes to the point of arrogance.
            "Right is right, even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong, even if everyone is doing it." - St. Augustine

            B*tch-lite

            Who says back fat is a bad thing? Maybe on a hairy guy at the beach, but not on a crab.

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            • Originally posted by Leida View Post
              Nah, it was traditional Russian candy, filled chocolates, and sweet condensed milk toffee-style stuff, caramels - they still know how to make really yum sweets down there. Stuff here is never tasted as good. Most ice-cream was old style cream and sugar one, I am guessing or hoping. Pasteurized, of course, but our dairy is pretty versatile with may things not available here. Interestingly, after yesterday's episode I am not craving it any more. Watermelon on another hand... and cherries... (sigh). *Administers another lick of coconut butter*.

              I had experience with consuming those healthy gummies daily after my preg in the afternoon, cherry twizzers, smal bag from a vending machine, as I recall. Once I dropped this habit, along with the healthy serving of berry field pastry after supper, my pg weight start going down.... that's all it took from 150+ to ~ 138 lbs. Just that daily bag of healthy candy.
              Leida what part of Canada are you in?

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              • Originally posted by Glockin Grok View Post
                Well isn't in a round about way what i was saying the the "calorie" may be a poor measure of human fuel? I never claimed it was not due to errors from calculation the calories of food or energy expenditure.

                But I do agree 100% you must operate in an energy deficit. I am just saying there may be more to it then counting calories that is all
                I think a calorie is a fine unit of energy. What varies is the needs of the individual. In today's food obsessed world, people tend to eat with their eyes instead of their stomachs. They have a preconceived notion of what a dinner plate should look like and wind up eating based on their eyes instead of hunger for so long it screws up their hunger mechanism. Our methods of calorie calculation seriously needs work. There needs to be a way to take hormones into the equation since people with naturally high levels of testosterone and low levels of cortisol are going to have much fewer issues with body composition than those with a slow thyroid and higher estrogen output.

                Ultimately, it comes down to personal responsibility. You need to not go into life with preconceived notions of how to eat. No doctor can tell you what's best for you. You have to take matters into your own hands and develop your own perfect dinner plate.
                Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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                • Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                  I just put frozen fruit and raw cream together in the Vitamix. Delicious and not too sweet.
                  Excellent idea. Depending on which fruit I use, maybe I'll throw some shredded coconut in there too
                  LastBottleWines

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                  • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                    I think a calorie is a fine unit of energy. What varies is the needs of the individual. In today's food obsessed world, people tend to eat with their eyes instead of their stomachs. They have a preconceived notion of what a dinner plate should look like and wind up eating based on their eyes instead of hunger for so long it screws up their hunger mechanism. Our methods of calorie calculation seriously needs work. There needs to be a way to take hormones into the equation since people with naturally high levels of testosterone and low levels of cortisol are going to have much fewer issues with body composition than those with a slow thyroid and higher estrogen output.

                    Ultimately, it comes down to personal responsibility. You need to not go into life with preconceived notions of how to eat. No doctor can tell you what's best for you. You have to take matters into your own hands and develop your own perfect dinner plate.
                    Wow Choco. Have you begun to see the light?

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                    • Originally posted by Iron Will View Post
                      Wow Choco. Have you begun to see the light?
                      But CICO still remains because those hormones play a role in the CO
                      well then

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                      • Originally posted by Iron Will View Post
                        Wow Choco. Have you begun to see the light?
                        He always has despite rattling the forums (a good thing) end of the day the take away lesson is just "being primal " may have gotten that first 70the lbs off you but you may need to track calories more diligently to loose that last 25. There is nothing new here.

                        Also i think we can all agree their are many factors many are unmeasureable to determine how many calories each body burns in a day.

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                        • very, very interesting. I haven't been on the forums for - well, months cos I got a mixture of confused and discouraged by contradictory and dogmatic (sometimes even downright argumentative and rude) posts. This seems to be a "middle way". maybe I'll have a look around and see how much the landscape has changed

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                          • Originally posted by Leida View Post
                            And Stacy's experience - I hoped so much that it will o-la-la gonna happen to me! OMG, I willjust eat my fill of good foods, lift heavy and YUP-YUP! I will add muscle and lose fat!!!! Nope. Never happened. Added bunch of fat, lifts not up. Stacy I am not.
                            Because Staci has a healthy metabolism.

                            Leida, every post I've ever seen from you on this forum is about the newest way you're going to starve yourself. You'll eventually fail, break down and try to "fix yourself", which will last a week when your weight goes up 2 lbs. Then you go onto the next starvation diet. You can't get the body you want because you refuse to let yourself be healthy. You're starving yourself fat and weak.

                            You are ravenously hungry because you are on the Auschwitz diet plan. You don't eat enough to get the nutrition you need. Your body is in constant fear of starving to death, so any fleeting moment you have a caloric surplus, it is stored as fat. Even though you don't eat a high carb diet, you're a sugar burner because you refuse to let your body be comfortable enough to burn its stored fat. You're constantly stressed and your blood glucose isn't stable because you burn muscle tissue as energy (glucose) and not adipose tissue.

                            You need to get fat. Because it's the only way you'll get thin. You need to seriously get rid of your scale, because it's your biggest downfall. You will never succeed if you check your weight daily because you will not hold to a plan. You need to take the next YEAR and just eat normally. And you shouldn't weigh yourself once. Go an entire 365 days without knowing what your weight or inches are. Just fucking do it. And don't go hungry once. Don't IF, don't count calories/carbs/grams of fat, etc. Don't rinse your ground beef. Don't use the little lines on the butter sleeve to measure out how much you should be using to sear meat in. You'll probably gain 10-20 lbs. And you need to. The ONLY way you'll ever lose your body fat is if you spend a really, really long time not being hungry. It's the only way your body will figure out that it doesn't NEED to carry body fat. You've done nothing but tell it to hold onto fat and burn up your muscles for years.

                            The proof - you can't build muscle. No shit your lifts aren't going up. Your body is burning muscle as fuel because you're constantly starving it. You need to overeat to build muscle mass, and you need to have the hormonal signals to tell your body to store excess calories as lean tissue and not adipose tissue. You can't do that if you're starving because fat storage is far more important to survival than lean muscle.

                            Stop dieting. Stop weighing. Stop measuring. Just eat a lot of food and get fat. And stay fat for a really long time. If you don't, you will never exceed. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. You are by definition insane. You need to try something new because you are clearly doing it wrong.
                            Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Iron Will View Post
                              Wow Choco. Have you begun to see the light?
                              There is a line drawn in the sand that separates hormones and calories. And it's not a fine line. It's the size of the Great Wall of China. You have too many preconceived notions, and they've forced you to never actually read one of my posts.
                              Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Leida View Post
                                90% failure rate is the number quoted for diet failure, i.e. how many people overall regain weight after losing it. The mechanics is very simple. They restrict calories, they lose weight. It gets hard, they start eating more food, they regain.

                                yeah, I was bulking up at 1800-2200 cals a day and gained 12 lbs in two months. No leveling off occurred. In fact, no leveling off ever occurred for me after I've lost my pg weight. It was 3 years ago. I have to continue to restrict calories and live in a trying to lose weight mode and experience hard core hunger to just maintaining. Every time it becomes unbearable, I gain some (most I gained was 12 lbs in those two months. Took 6+ month and 6 weeks of UD to take it off). Is that long-term enough for you?

                                Do you think people would chose to suffer and restrict IF they could do it the other way by eating more? Do you think we haven't read those articles, and haven't TRIED? Those anecdotal cases of women ho started eating more and prospered are out there, but I have never met anyone in two or three communities for whom it actually worked. Look at Paula's story - she was cutting and cutting calories DOWN.

                                And Stacy's experience - I hoped so much that it will o-la-la gonna happen to me! OMG, I willjust eat my fill of good foods, lift heavy and YUP-YUP! I will add muscle and lose fat!!!! Nope. Never happened. Added bunch of fat, lifts not up. Stacy I am not.

                                If you are ready and willing to take months of weight gain, look like crap after looking Okay, not fit in your clothes, hoping that miracles are gonna happen for you and you gonna transform 8 months down the road... good luck! In my experience, miracles ain't gonna happen. In all likelihood, one will just get fatter and fatter and fatter. It's only genetically programmed after all.

                                The only way is to get the low, and hold on to it for dear life kicking one's ass every time pounds start coming up again, if you are capable off. Never-ever let more than 1 months of steady gains with no drops, 'cause that's the road back to Square 1. Well, unless you decided that's that it, you want to descend into fat life for good. I thought i did, but size 8 pants feeling too tight is making me reconsider right now (and that's after picking up a pair of comfy Size 2 last Saturday for god's sake). That, and that fact that letting my guard down and being a fool will now send me on a romantic vacation with my husband looking like a pregnant sow, when I could have looked much better if I did not give up. STUPID, STUPID, STUPID.
                                I kind of agree and disagree with some points you made. Unless there IS sound data to suggest the whole reverse dieting, I call hog wash on it as well because like you, I tried the whole increase your calories to level off your metabolism and like you, I continuously gained weight.

                                I am very petite as well and don't suscribe to the calorie restriction and suffering while doing it as you have stressed in your post. In fact, if I really disciplined myself and not be gluttonous, there is no reason I should feel like I am suffering BECAUSE that is what MY body is happy with. I can easily keep within 900-1100 range at 5 feet tall roughly and be full and feel great even when I am not eating 100 percent primal.

                                I mean, if you are like me, and you are short and LOVE food, then yea, I can see what you mean by suffering and feeling deprived because you want to eat like your much taller friends or partners. Speaking from a health perspective though and even body signal wise, you can very much strive on that amount of calories if you are small. What I am saying is "restriction" IMO to say 1000 calories a day, for an inactive tiny person, need not come with suffering body or health wise but definitely entails disciplining the mind.....speaking from personal experience of course!

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