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  • #61
    Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
    Not to quote myself, but this study does indicate that antioxidants (particularly vitamin E which is found in nuts and seeds) may negate some (all?) of these negative effects that a high PUFA diet may induce. The study that Choco posted held vitamin E at a steady level while increasing PUFA because antioxidants have been shown to mitigate the damage.
    Which supports the notion that whole foods are always superior. Of course nuts and fish aren't on the same level as an isolated oil stripped of its symbiotic antioxidants and phytochemicals. Walnuts =/= soybean oil, even though the lipid profile is pretty similar. And on the same side of the coin, fruit =/= sugar.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by paleo-bunny View Post
      That doesn't apply to me - however I've never been insulin resistant as you clearly are.
      Dunno how insulin resistance became relevant or how a simple statement of fact "doesn't apply to you". Maybe its cultural divide in what you find funny in the UK vs across the pond here. Either way it doesn't really matter to me what you do...eat skittles chased with Jack for all I care.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
        No, they don't. They only referenced total cholesterol. Clearly, as the study was funded by the "Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (MAFF) and the Scottish Office Agriculture, Environment, and Fisheries Department (SOAEFD)," the idea is to lessen the blow and throw opinion in to muddy the factual waters. Because the study clearly shows oxidative damage caused by increased polyunsaturated fat - and ya know, you can't skew hard numbers - the only thing they could do to rescue the results is to quote the "total cholesterol" being lowered. I'd be willing to bet there's a reason why HDL and LDL numbers were left out, and that's because the ratios got worse as well.

        The reality of the study was the factual results given by the hard numbers completely demonize polyunsaturated fat. Remove opinion from the conclusion and there is literally no positive shown by increased PUFA consumption.
        "However, superoxide dismutase significantly decreased (13%, P=0.018) after consumption of the low PUFA diet."

        Recombinant superoxide dismutase reduces oxygen free radical concentrations in reperfused myocardium.

        "These studies demonstrate that superoxide-derived free radicals are generated during postischemic reperfusion and suggest that the beneficial effect of r-h-SOD is due to its specific enzymatic scavenging of superoxide free radicals."

        Layman's terms: superoxide dismutase eliminates free radicals from the body and a low pufa diet lowers superoxide dismutase in the body substantially. Hmmm, maybe that is why the studies show that increased pufa intake lowers heart disease.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by jimhensen View Post
          "However, superoxide dismutase significantly decreased (13%, P=0.018) after consumption of the low PUFA diet."

          Recombinant superoxide dismutase reduces oxygen free radical concentrations in reperfused myocardium.

          "These studies demonstrate that superoxide-derived free radicals are generated during postischemic reperfusion and suggest that the beneficial effect of r-h-SOD is due to its specific enzymatic scavenging of superoxide free radicals."

          Layman's terms: superoxide dismutase eliminates free radicals from the body and a low pufa diet lowers superoxide dismutase in the body substantially. Hmmm, maybe that is why the studies show that increased pufa intake lowers heart disease.
          Or, perhaps, since the biological effect of superoxide dismutase is to "eliminate free radicals from the body," since inflammation on a low PUFA diet was substantially lower and there are far less free radicals, the body needs less superoxide dismutase.

          So, by your own analysis, superoxide dismutase is essentially a bandage - when there is a lot of oxidative stress on the body, it comes in as damage control. So, it stands to reason that a body that isn't inflamed wouldn't need the stuff, right? You wouldn't put Band Aids all over your body if you didn't have cuts, right?

          Your argument is its own worst enemy.
          Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
            Or, perhaps, since the biological effect of superoxide dismutase is to "eliminate free radicals from the body," since inflammation on a low PUFA diet was substantially lower and there are far less free radicals, the body needs less superoxide dismutase.

            So, by your own analysis, superoxide dismutase is essentially a bandage - when there is a lot of oxidative stress on the body, it comes in as damage control. So, it stands to reason that a body that isn't inflamed wouldn't need the stuff, right? You wouldn't put Band Aids all over your body if you didn't have cuts, right?

            Your argument is its own worst enemy.
            If your argument was right (pufas cause inflammation, inflammation causes heart attacks, thus pufas cause heart attacks) then why don't any observational studies support it? Why do pretty much all of the observational studies show that higher intakes of pufas (and lower intakes of saturated fats) yield the best health?

            Nutrition isn't math. The transitive property doesn't work in the body.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by jimhensen View Post
              If your argument was right (pufas cause inflammation, inflammation causes heart attacks, thus pufas cause heart attacks) then why don't any observational studies support it? Why do pretty much all of the observational studies show that higher intakes of pufas (and lower intakes of saturated fats) yield the best health?

              Nutrition isn't math. The transitive property doesn't work in the body.
              I'm not sure about the other factors involved but this observational study doesn't support high O6 content
              Diet and disease--the Israeli paradox: possibl... [Isr J Med Sci. 1996] - PubMed - NCBI

              Also this seems to suggest that increasing LA may be off target.
              http://journals.cambridge.org/action...07114510004010
              I haven't really looked into studies or info on vegetable oil/LA. Besides a bit of butter I use for shallow frying I only really cook with macadamia nut oil which has a high smoke point and is considered universally good by both sides.
              Last edited by Forgotmylastusername; 07-25-2012, 05:54 AM.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by jimhensen View Post
                If your argument was right (pufas cause inflammation, inflammation causes heart attacks, thus pufas cause heart attacks) then why don't any observational studies support it? Why do pretty much all of the observational studies show that higher intakes of pufas (and lower intakes of saturated fats) yield the best health?

                Nutrition isn't math. The transitive property doesn't work in the body.
                Where are you getting your information? Where exactly do studies show that higher intake of PUFA's yield best health? I just showed you that they clearly cause an increase in systemic inflammation.

                The most common source of PUFA's in the American diet are grains and hydrogenated vegetable oils. How, exactly, have these things been shown to be beneficial to health? Hydrogenated oils are universally maligned and grains are the least nutrient-dense food group available.

                Show me one controlled study - one - where polyunsaturated fat was given to people and inflammation went down and cholesterol ratios improved. You asked for a study and I gave it to you. Now it's your turn.
                Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                  Show me one controlled study - one - where polyunsaturated fat was given to people and inflammation went down and cholesterol ratios improved. You asked for a study and I gave it to you. Now it's your turn.
                  Good luck, I have been asking for ages and nothing.
                  Eating primal is not a diet, it is a way of life.
                  PS
                  Don't forget to play!

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Dirlot View Post
                    Good luck, I have been asking for ages and nothing.
                    There's assumptions, theories, opinions, wishful thinking, or personal anecdotes & then there's science. People believe what they choose to... Sadly, the science is most often skewed or just plain bad from the get-go.
                    "Science is not belief but the will to find out." ~ Anonymous
                    "Culture of the mind must be subservient to the heart." ~ Gandhi
                    "The flogging will continue until morale improves." ~ Unknown

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                    • #70
                      Walnuts & Other Nuts Improve Markers of Chronic Disease | Worldhealth.net Anti-Aging News

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                      • #71
                        Same website, study is from my Alma Mater, Appalachian State U, in Boone NC, Woot!!

                        I do like chia seeds, & as they are "oil seeds" that need not be soaked or sprouted to access their nutrition... This is according to my lengthly phone conversation w/ one of the world's leading research scientist of the chia seed, Dr. Wayne Coates.
                        He's published many studies.

                        Btw, Choco, regular consumption of chia seeds DOES DECREASE INFLAMMATION in real live humans, with ample research & personal testimonials that back that statement up... Chia Seeds May Exert Cardioprotective Effects | Worldhealth.net Anti-Aging News
                        "Science is not belief but the will to find out." ~ Anonymous
                        "Culture of the mind must be subservient to the heart." ~ Gandhi
                        "The flogging will continue until morale improves." ~ Unknown

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                        • #72
                          This paper reviews the research (including plenty of controlled studies) nicely

                          Omega-6 Fatty Acids and Risk for Cardiovascular Disease

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                          • #73
                            Saturated fat good then bad, omega 6 good then bad...etc.

                            Carbs no carbs. perhaps simple a closest to natural diet,skip man made stuff and moderation all????

                            one can argue all day on lectin,saponins,sugars,fats<toxins in fat i.e lean meat argument...point being that are we all snakes swallowing our tails?? what if the negative things have benefit to our bodies, some of the most powerful medicine are made from poisons.

                            To add balance to the PUFA hating we are enjoying here is a interesting link.

                            http://www.ajcn.org/content/early/2012/ ... 2.abstract

                            CVD, Saturated Fat, and Atherosclerosis: What is the Paleo Argument? - PaleoHacks.com ... z1vLbVM7dd

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