Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

PUFA so bad?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Yes, PUFA in the extent that we use them are really bad. Here is a great article explaining it:

    Fats and degeneration
    Ray Peat Forum
    "A place to discuss everything Ray Peat"

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by charliemathers View Post
      Yes, PUFA really bad. Here is a great article explaining it:

      Fats and degeneration
      "The long chain fats found in fish and some algae don't interfere with animal enzymes as strongly as the seed oils do, and so by comparison, they aren't so harmful."

      Being that he is so anti PUFA yet can recognize this indicates to me we can replace "aren't so harmful" with "ARE NOT HARMFUL"
      Last edited by Neckhammer; 07-24-2012, 08:31 AM.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
        In my refrigerator, I have a jar of almond butter, a jar of organic peanut butter, 1 lb of raw cashews, 8 oz of raw pecans, 1 lb of California walnuts, 1 lb of raw hazelnuts and 1 lb of raw almonds. I eat nuts. I love nuts. I just don't eat them daily, I've never sat down with a spoon and a jar of nut butter and I don't snack on them. Hell, I don't snack, period. I throw a handful of them on my salad, occasionally chop them coarsely and use them as a breading or use them for a very rare cheesecake crust or toss them in ice cream. Lettuce makes up a higher caloric percentage of my diet than nuts. It's all about overconsumption, and I try and stay light on the foods easy to overconsume.
        I get it, you're not an anti-nut nut... But unlike you, many people in transition to primal, hell, many people doing primal for a while do snack too. So we agree that nuts are ok snacks in moderation, as long as they are fresh & de-lectin'd by whatever method of prep one chooses. I personally dislike the roasted effect on my soaked nuts, so I just soak my whole walnuts &/or slightly sprout my almonds & peel 'em.

        I'm still not convinced fermented fish oil is, by default, a bad thing. Rather I take it coz I think it's a good thing, 1 capsule if I eat @ cafo meal once in a while to sorta balance things out, at least on a o36 basis. Again, moderation.

        Hard to justify CAFO, but there are some on a budget that mostly eat it & still call themselves primal, coz of the no/low lectin, low toxic approach espoused here. It's about progress, not perfection, imo.
        "Science is not belief but the will to find out." ~ Anonymous
        "Culture of the mind must be subservient to the heart." ~ Gandhi
        "The flogging will continue until morale improves." ~ Unknown

        Comment


        • #49
          I'm one of those people in transition to primal from a mostly vegan diet (not a junk food/soy vegan but a whole foods/sprouted grains/fermented foods vegan). I still rely on nuts for snacks. And actually, I'd love more info on sprouting nuts as Betorq mentions. And I was about to order some FCLO as I previously took vegetable based supplements (flax, etc). I'd love more info on FCLO.

          I'm sure that as I continue to adapt to this lifestyle, I'll make better choices and learn more. But my little bag of almonds saved me at the movie theatre on Saturday when the rest of my group was eating candy and popcorn.
          http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...d61289-12.html

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Artbuc View Post
            Seems like you are asking for a study that shows (proves?) that PUFA's oxidatively degrade and cause CHD/CVD. I don't think this study exists because I have been looking for it ever since I found this forum. Chris Masterjohn wrote an article that referenced a study which showed oxidized LDL was absorbed by macrophages which in turn formed foam cells whereas unoxidized LDL did not. This may be as close to what we are looking for as we are going to get.
            Originally posted by jimhensen View Post
            Maybe the study doesn't exist because pufas don't cause CHD.
            I suggest you both read this study (yes, a legit study not an opinion piece):

            http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v.../1600783a.html

            Objective: To assess whether nutritionally-relevant changes in polyunsaturated fatty acid (PUFA) intake alter indices of oxidative stress in human volunteers

            Design: A split plot/change over dietary study where half the volunteers consumed a diet containing 5% PUFA (low PUFA) as food energy for 4 weeks and after a 6 week washout period consumed a 15% PUFA (high PUFA) diet for another 4 weeks. The second group of volunteers completed this protocol in reverse. Total fat, carbohydrate, protein and vitamin E contents of the diets were constant.

            Subjects: 10 healthy, non-smoking, male volunteers aged 32.61.7 y

            Results: There was a significant increase in whole blood oxidised glutathione (P<0.05), an index of oxidative stress, after consumption of the high PUFA diet. Moreover, urinary thiobarbituric acid reactive substances (TBARS), an index of lipid peroxidation, significantly increased (P=0.038) following consumption of the high PUFA diet and decreased (P=0.031) after consuming the low PUFA diet. However, there was no change in non specific plasma indices of lipid peroxidation, conjugated dienes and TBARS, nor in red cell antioxidant enzymes glutathione peroxidase, glutathione reductase, and catalase. However, superoxide dismutase significantly decreased (13%, P=0.018) after consumption of the low PUFA diet. Total cholesterol increased by 13% (P=0.014) after consumption of the low PUFA diet.

            Conclusions: This study indicates that although increasing dietary levels of PUFA may favourably alter cholesterol profiles, the same dietary changes may adversely affect some indices of lipid peroxidation. Care should be taken when providing dietary advice on PUFA intake and an adequate intake of antioxidants to match any increased PUFA may be important for preventing oxidative stress.

            Sponsorship: Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (MAFF) and the Scottish Office Agriculture, Environment, and Fisheries Department (SOAEFD)
            Cliffnotes:

            1.) The high PUFA diet of the same macronutrients substantially increased the body's markers for oxidative stress while the low PUFA diet lowered them substantially.

            2.) Increasing PUFA decreased cholesterol while decreasing PUFA increased cholesterol.

            The takeaway: since macronutrients were held constant, when PUFA was decreased, saturated fat and monounsaturated fat would have had to have increased to maintain the proper macros. The study definitively shows increasing PUFA to be inflammatory. However, the study makes an error and only references "total cholesterol." Because of the pro-inflammatory effects of the PUFA, the only logical conclusion that can be drawn is that adding PUFA decreases good cholesterol, which would explain the decrease in total cholesterol.

            But we should all know by now that low blood cholesterol is not healthy. The statistics are solid, but the adjectives used in the analysis is what must be ignored. The numbers can't be argued but don't buy into the whole "favorably alter cholesterol profile" BS. That is an opinion. There is a difference.a

            PUFA's increase inflammatory markers: definitively shown by the study for these ten individuals.
            PUFA's favorably alter cholesterol profile: completely unsubstantiated opinion that the study actually shows otherwise and should be disregarded as fiction with an agenda.

            That's the takeaway.
            Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 07-24-2012, 10:21 AM.
            Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
              Sorry, you did ask for studies....Now I'm not assuming any of these studies are on nuts. Any of you who regularly look at research realize that whole foods are rarely studied (except in epidemiological studies), so looking at the constituents of nuts (O6 being one) and seeing the data on upper limits for O6 before incurring negative health response....well make your own call.... but, there may be more to it.

              I understand this is a reductionist pattern of science attempting to resolve a more holistic matter, but lets face it ...this is how science is done. If a nut is greater than the sum of its parts (which I think it is) then don't worry so much....For instance nuts tend to contain certain vitamins (like vitamin E) that in in other trials have been shown to eliminate at least one of the negative health aspects of higher O6/pufa diet. The effect of increased intakes of polyunsaturated fatty acids and vitamin E on DNA damage in human lymphocytes

              From what I see pufa can be bad....but particularly from nuts or in the accompaniment of good antioxidants?...not so certain.
              Not to quote myself, but this study does indicate that antioxidants (particularly vitamin E which is found in nuts and seeds) may negate some (all?) of these negative effects that a high PUFA diet may induce. The study that Choco posted held vitamin E at a steady level while increasing PUFA because antioxidants have been shown to mitigate the damage.
              Last edited by Neckhammer; 07-24-2012, 10:29 AM.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Betorq View Post
                I get it, you're not an anti-nut nut... But unlike you, many people in transition to primal, hell, many people doing primal for a while do snack too. So we agree that nuts are ok snacks in moderation, as long as they are fresh & de-lectin'd by whatever method of prep one chooses. I personally dislike the roasted effect on my soaked nuts, so I just soak my whole walnuts &/or slightly sprout my almonds & peel 'em.

                I'm still not convinced fermented fish oil is, by default, a bad thing. Rather I take it coz I think it's a good thing, 1 capsule if I eat @ cafo meal once in a while to sorta balance things out, at least on a o36 basis. Again, moderation.

                Hard to justify CAFO, but there are some on a budget that mostly eat it & still call themselves primal, coz of the no/low lectin, low toxic approach espoused here. It's about progress, not perfection, imo.
                I don't de-lectin my nuts. I buy them raw and eat them raw. I like them better raw than roasted and I don't care to soak them. I eat lots of nutrient-dense foods and avoid grains, legumes and vegetable oils like the plague. A few handfuls of nuts a month don't scare me with their lectins enough to do hours of prep. I'm not arguing that your method is better - it is - but at my consumption I'm not worrying about it. I do too much food prep as it is.

                I have issues with posts like this:

                Creative Nut Recipes | Mark's Daily Apple

                Normally, I like Mark's posts but this post from 4 years ago bothers me. Now, it's 4 years old and he's less keen on nuts than he used to be today, but it's stuff like this that aggravates me. In this post, he recommends making your own nut butters, baking your own nut crackers, baking nut crusts for pies and drinking almond milk. It also contains this statement right up top:

                Loaded with heart-healthy good fats and a good source of protein, nuts are a satisfying – not to mention – tasty addition to any diet. But, if you relegate your nut consumption only to the odd handful of raw nuts you’re missing out on a ton of opportunities to go nuts!
                Nuts have fragile fats, incomplete and poor quality proteins and they aren't meant to be eaten anything other than by the odd handful of raw nuts. When you bake them, outside of super low PUFA macadamias (and possibly hazelnuts and cashews), you're making compounds similar to varnish. After all, varnish is superheated polyunsaturated fat at its heart.

                MDA has improved by leaps and bounds since this post was written and I don't think Mark would ever make a post like this again glorifying nut consumption in these levels and by these methods, but be wary of old info. The archives can be a little sketchy. Cashew butter is effing awesome, though. I'm guilty of making that once or twice.
                Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 07-24-2012, 10:34 AM.
                Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Fantastic info and insights Choco, I for one think you've got a bloody good point.

                  I only eat macadamias now, but, quite a lot of them. Hey ho. Packed in smoking, excessive drinking, etc etc. A guy needs a couple of vices right?

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                    Inflammation causes CHD. Inflammation is primarily caused by too much polyunsaturated fat and lectins in foods. If you have a low intake of PUFA, you're going to have a lower risk of CHD. There are plenty of studies confirming that a diet high in omega 6 is very inflammatory.
                    Why don't you post studies showing that omega 6 produces inflammation. And if it does and if inflammation causes CHD why don't studies show that omega 6's cause CHD?

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                      I suggest you both read this study (yes, a legit study not an opinion piece):

                      Dietary intakes of polyunsaturated fatty acids and indices of oxidative stress in human volunteers



                      Cliffnotes:

                      1.) The high PUFA diet of the same macronutrients substantially increased the body's markers for oxidative stress while the low PUFA diet lowered them substantially.

                      2.) Increasing PUFA decreased cholesterol while decreasing PUFA increased cholesterol.

                      The takeaway: since macronutrients were held constant, when PUFA was decreased, saturated fat and monounsaturated fat would have had to have increased to maintain the proper macros. The study definitively shows increasing PUFA to be inflammatory. However, the study makes an error and only references "total cholesterol." Because of the pro-inflammatory effects of the PUFA, the only logical conclusion that can be drawn is that adding PUFA decreases good cholesterol, which would explain the decrease in total cholesterol.

                      But we should all know by now that low blood cholesterol is not healthy. The statistics are solid, but the adjectives used in the analysis is what must be ignored. The numbers can't be argued but don't buy into the whole "favorably alter cholesterol profile" BS. That is an opinion. There is a difference.a

                      PUFA's increase inflammatory markers: definitively shown by the study for these ten individuals.
                      PUFA's favorably alter cholesterol profile: completely unsubstantiated opinion that the study actually shows otherwise and should be disregarded as fiction with an agenda.

                      That's the takeaway.
                      "the only logical conclusion that can be drawn is that adding PUFA decreases good cholesterol, which would explain the decrease in total cholesterol."

                      lol, what? You really think that the people that did this study don't know the difference between HDL and LDL? When someone says that it improved cholesterol numbers they mean either ldl or triglycerides went down or HDL went up, or a combination of those things.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        What do nuts have to offer that's so special?

                        I will eat them on occasion when dining out. I think the last time I ate them was in a salad with walnuts, goat's cheese and beetroot. It was delicious. I do like the taste of almond but haven't eaten them for several months.

                        Sorry but I just don't get it when people say that they find it so difficult to give up eating nuts. I say that if you're getting sufficient essential fats and the other micronutrients that are prevalent in nuts then nuts are no big deal, however tasty they may be.

                        I do love the taste of pine kernels but they are not something I crave.
                        F 5 ft 3. HW: 196 lbs. Primal SW (May 2011): 182 lbs (42% BF)... W June '12: 160 lbs (29% BF) (UK size 12, US size 8). GW: ~24% BF - have ditched the scales til I fit into a pair of UK size 10 bootcut jeans. Currently aligning towards 'The Perfect Health Diet' having swapped some fat for potatoes.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          What does "x" have thats special?

                          Same argument could be made about almost any primal food since most will have at least one redundant analogue out there. I mean that's kinda why we can do so well with a variety of diets.

                          Still nuts are a source of some of the less attained minerals on primal like the elusive magnesium or for some selenium. I'd rather eat some nuts on a daily basis than supplement, but that's just me. I'm not into leafy greens all the time either.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by jimhensen View Post
                            "the only logical conclusion that can be drawn is that adding PUFA decreases good cholesterol, which would explain the decrease in total cholesterol."

                            lol, what? You really think that the people that did this study don't know the difference between HDL and LDL? When someone says that it improved cholesterol numbers they mean either ldl or triglycerides went down or HDL went up, or a combination of those things.
                            Most of the time when they say cholesterol numbers improve without breaking it down they are referring to total cholesterol. BTW there is nothing wrong with LDL, it is a very important lipo-protien just make sure you have the big fluffy ones.
                            Eating primal is not a diet, it is a way of life.
                            PS
                            Don't forget to play!

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                              What does "x" have thats special?

                              Same argument could be made about almost any primal food since most will have at least one redundant analogue out there. I mean that's kinda why we can do so well with a variety of diets.

                              Still nuts are a source of some of the less attained minerals on primal like the elusive magnesium or for some selenium. I'd rather eat some nuts on a daily basis than supplement, but that's just me. I'm not into leafy greens all the time either.
                              That doesn't apply to me - however I've never been insulin resistant as you clearly are.
                              F 5 ft 3. HW: 196 lbs. Primal SW (May 2011): 182 lbs (42% BF)... W June '12: 160 lbs (29% BF) (UK size 12, US size 8). GW: ~24% BF - have ditched the scales til I fit into a pair of UK size 10 bootcut jeans. Currently aligning towards 'The Perfect Health Diet' having swapped some fat for potatoes.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by jimhensen View Post
                                "the only logical conclusion that can be drawn is that adding PUFA decreases good cholesterol, which would explain the decrease in total cholesterol."

                                lol, what? You really think that the people that did this study don't know the difference between HDL and LDL? When someone says that it improved cholesterol numbers they mean either ldl or triglycerides went down or HDL went up, or a combination of those things.
                                No, they don't. They only referenced total cholesterol. Clearly, as the study was funded by the "Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (MAFF) and the Scottish Office Agriculture, Environment, and Fisheries Department (SOAEFD)," the idea is to lessen the blow and throw opinion in to muddy the factual waters. Because the study clearly shows oxidative damage caused by increased polyunsaturated fat - and ya know, you can't skew hard numbers - the only thing they could do to rescue the results is to quote the "total cholesterol" being lowered. I'd be willing to bet there's a reason why HDL and LDL numbers were left out, and that's because the ratios got worse as well.

                                The reality of the study was the factual results given by the hard numbers completely demonize polyunsaturated fat. Remove opinion from the conclusion and there is literally no positive shown by increased PUFA consumption.
                                Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X