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  • #31
    Originally posted by Artbuc View Post
    Seems like you are asking for a study that shows (proves?) that PUFA's oxidatively degrade and cause CHD/CVD. I don't think this study exists because I have been looking for it ever since I found this forum. Chris Masterjohn wrote an article that referenced a study which showed oxidized LDL was absorbed by macrophages which in turn formed foam cells whereas unoxidized LDL did not. This may be as close to what we are looking for as we are going to get.
    Maybe the study doesn't exist because pufas don't cause CHD.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by jimhensen View Post
      Maybe the study doesn't exist because pufas don't cause CHD.
      Don't go overextending yourself there jim....PUFA does seem to be detrimental in excess. Particularly PUFA toxicity in diets with omega 6 at 10-15% of calories....but these are especially prone to cancer. Dunno about CHD, but death is death right?

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      • #33
        Sorry, you did ask for studies....Now I'm not assuming any of these studies are on nuts. Any of you who regularly look at research realize that whole foods are rarely studied (except in epidemiological studies), so looking at the constituents of nuts (O6 being one) and seeing the data on upper limits for O6 before incurring negative health response....well make your own call.... but, there may be more to it.

        I understand this is a reductionist pattern of science attempting to resolve a more holistic matter, but lets face it ...this is how science is done. If a nut is greater than the sum of its parts (which I think it is) then don't worry so much....For instance nuts tend to contain certain vitamins (like vitamin E) that in in other trials have been shown to eliminate at least one of the negative health aspects of higher O6/pufa diet. http://www.fasebj.org/content/13/15/2138.short

        From what I see pufa can be bad....but particularly from nuts or in the accompaniment of good antioxidants?...not so certain.
        Last edited by Neckhammer; 07-21-2012, 06:19 PM.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by dommers
          That sounds sensible. If eat nuts I eat too many and become to rely on expecting / looking forward to the snack, so now I have cut out all snacks. I am happy to have them in the odd salad or dish, or one day I want to get around to trying a. primal satay sauce, but for now, I can go without.
          Look for Indonesian satay recipes - no nuts, just coconut milk. Usually have soya sauce though, but its not hard to find wheat free fermented soya sauce
          Four years Primal with influences from Jaminet & Shanahan and a focus on being anti-inflammatory. Using Primal to treat CVD and prevent stents from blocking free of drugs.

          Eat creatures nose-to-tail (animal, fowl, fish, crustacea, molluscs), a large variety of vegetables (raw, cooked and fermented, including safe starches), dairy (cheese & yoghurt), occasional fruit, cocoa, turmeric & red wine

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          • #35
            Dommers must be a spambot he copied my post. But I will take that advice Peril, thanks.

            Is the wheat free fermented soy that tamari sauce?

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Betorq View Post
              Gee thanks. In theory it's just another day, although...in fact, everyone has to do things my way & agree w/ me for the next 12 hrs or so, lol
              How did that go?

              Hope you had a good one...

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              • #37
                Originally posted by katemary View Post
                How did that go?

                Hope you had a good one...
                Thanks, it was a seafood extravaganza, for my b-day.
                "Science is not belief but the will to find out." ~ Anonymous
                "Culture of the mind must be subservient to the heart." ~ Gandhi
                "The flogging will continue until morale improves." ~ Unknown

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Betorq View Post
                  Thanks, it was a seafood extravaganza, for my b-day.
                  yummo. now, everyone else is in charge for 364 days!

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                  • #39
                    For those of you reading who take fermented cod liver oil, I'm wondering how much you take? There were a couple comments in th Real Food Summit about it not necessarily being a good thing, though whether that came from others besides Matt Stone/Ray Peat followers, I can't recall.

                    I just got some FCLO/HVB (blue ice from Green Pastures) for my 9 yr old son and 93 yr old Father. I'd like them to take a tsp during the week (breaking for the weekend) and perhaps take a month off here or there. I'm thinking it might be better and more important in the winter months anyway. But what's your regime? I have the gel, btw, as it's somewhat cheaper. If I could afford it, I'd take it myself, too! But I'm thinking a tsp is not a huge amount and shouldn't overload their systems. Since it's fermented and refrigerated I don't think there is a concern about it being rancid.
                    SW: 243
                    CW: 177
                    Goal: Health

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by KerryK View Post
                      For those of you reading who take fermented cod liver oil, I'm wondering how much you take? There were a couple comments in th Real Food Summit about it not necessarily being a good thing, though whether that came from others besides Matt Stone/Ray Peat followers, I can't recall.

                      I just got some FCLO/HVB (blue ice from Green Pastures) for my 9 yr old son and 93 yr old Father. I'd like them to take a tsp during the week (breaking for the weekend) and perhaps take a month off here or there. I'm thinking it might be better and more important in the winter months anyway. But what's your regime? I have the gel, btw, as it's somewhat cheaper. If I could afford it, I'd take it myself, too! But I'm thinking a tsp is not a huge amount and shouldn't overload their systems. Since it's fermented and refrigerated I don't think there is a concern about it being rancid.
                      IMO fermented cod liver oil is food. You can definitely supplement with it and not have ill effect. Most of the fish oils from reputable sources (like the one you have) have expiration dates on them. Before that date they should be perfectly safe. There are definitely still individual instances where O3 supplementation are beneficial.

                      The change in thinking is the idea that "more is better", or that you have to calculate your O6 and supplement UP to that ratio with O3. These are the incorrect. If your concern is ratio just eliminating seed oils and other non primal foods reduces your O6 enough to where you could either eat a bit of fish OR do a little smart supplementing.
                      Last edited by Neckhammer; 07-24-2012, 06:19 AM.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                        And you are assuming that we may not need them to survive. Thats a fairly large assumption IMO. Just look at the FA breakdown of animals. I haven't seen any evidence of a culture aimed to eliminate PUFA and am not aware of any science showing that it is necessary for good health.

                        I have seen many studies and epidemiological accounts of people who eat more fish having better health markers than those who do not.

                        There is absolutely an upper limit and there is concern about ratio, but to say they are completely unnecessary is a HUGE leap of logic.
                        No assumptions. I know for a fact that we don't need to eat fish or take fish oil to survive. If omega 3 is necessary, there is clearly enough in the other meats and vegetables we eat to meet the demand. Even the worst diet in history, the standard American diet, keeps us alive into our 70's and 80's. We're living longer than ever despite the worst eating habits ever, and since I feel my diet is superior to the SAD the overwhelming majority of people eat, I'll take my chances not supplementing with some potentially rancid oil. Fish oil = snake oil as far as I'm concerned. I strongly doubt it's the fish keeping people alive longer. Seafaring societies have a lower instance of grain and vegetable oil consumption as well and I'm hedging my bets that that is the reason why they live longer and not the fish.
                        Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by jimhensen View Post
                          Maybe the study doesn't exist because pufas don't cause CHD.
                          Inflammation causes CHD. Inflammation is primarily caused by too much polyunsaturated fat and lectins in foods. If you have a low intake of PUFA, you're going to have a lower risk of CHD. There are plenty of studies confirming that a diet high in omega 6 is very inflammatory.
                          Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Betorq View Post
                            A lot of people get bored on or need more than meat, fish, fruits & veggies over time. I'm not saying they "need" nuts. But many/most people are not hardcore & eating some nuts & other not so great but ok foods in moderation, allows them to stick w/ this WOE, then that's a good thing imo. Imo, it's why Mark has expanded & relaxed some on what is/isn't primal: to reach out to & be adoptable & doable for a lot more of the population. One of his goals is to reach, if I recall it correctly, 10 million people to adopt primal living. It's better to eat some nuts, than get bored or burned out on a more narrow WOE for many people who aren't so creative or don't have access to wide varieties of veggies,fatty fish or may never eat offal.

                            Not daily, but when I want it, I take cod liver oil, fermented, which HAS BEEN CONSUMED for a long long time by Scandinavian peoples. No prostate cancer rates there out of normal expectations for western populations elsewhere not consuming this oil. If I ate more fatty fish & had a history of low PUFA in my diet I'd likely not supplement. But I don't eat as much fish & seafood as I'd like to, so I do....
                            In my refrigerator, I have a jar of almond butter, a jar of organic peanut butter, 1 lb of raw cashews, 8 oz of raw pecans, 1 lb of California walnuts, 1 lb of raw hazelnuts and 1 lb of raw almonds. I eat nuts. I love nuts. I just don't eat them daily, I've never sat down with a spoon and a jar of nut butter and I don't snack on them. Hell, I don't snack, period. I throw a handful of them on my salad, occasionally chop them coarsely and use them as a breading or use them for a very rare cheesecake crust or toss them in ice cream. Lettuce makes up a higher caloric percentage of my diet than nuts. It's all about overconsumption, and I try and stay light on the foods easy to overconsume.
                            Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                              Inflammation causes CHD. Inflammation is primarily caused by too much polyunsaturated fat and lectins in foods. If you have a low intake of PUFA, you're going to have a lower risk of CHD. There are plenty of studies confirming that a diet high in omega 6 is very inflammatory.
                              What about stress or lack of good sleep, or enough time for sleep? There are many causes for inflammation in the body, chronic injuries, even extreme or sudden exercise. There are others I'm not thinking of...?

                              Diet is not the lone cause of people's health maladies, though it is major factor, no doubt.
                              "Science is not belief but the will to find out." ~ Anonymous
                              "Culture of the mind must be subservient to the heart." ~ Gandhi
                              "The flogging will continue until morale improves." ~ Unknown

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                                No assumptions. I know for a fact that we don't need to eat fish or take fish oil to survive. If omega 3 is necessary, there is clearly enough in the other meats and vegetables we eat to meet the demand. Even the worst diet in history, the standard American diet, keeps us alive into our 70's and 80's. We're living longer than ever despite the worst eating habits ever, and since I feel my diet is superior to the SAD the overwhelming majority of people eat, I'll take my chances not supplementing with some potentially rancid oil. Fish oil = snake oil as far as I'm concerned. I strongly doubt it's the fish keeping people alive longer. Seafaring societies have a lower instance of grain and vegetable oil consumption as well and I'm hedging my bets that that is the reason why they live longer and not the fish.
                                Actually it is a complete and total assumption. Whether or not that assumption is backed by any relevant data is the question. IMO its not. You need to not spread your argument in twenty different directions at once. You specifically said limit PUFA....not to limit rancid fish oil. Both you and Ray Ray are off the deep end if your quest is to completely eliminate (or near zero) the PUFA in your diet to the extent that you would even consider a fatty piece of fish as less healthy than a lean piece.

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