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  • #61
    Originally posted by jimhensen View Post
    IF this were true, which it is not, the people that ate the least amount of grains, whether refined or whole, would be healthiest. Right? But the people that eat the most whole grains are always the healthiest. Why aren't these studies showing that people that eat the least amount of grains are healthiest?????? Please just answer that.
    That would depend on what else is being eaten by the people who don't eat grains. And by the way, the thread is about wheat specifically, not all grains.

    Personally, I don't care whether people eat wheat or not. I don't because it gives me problems, but the rest of my family does. I ate it for years, but started to run into problems (joint inflammation, especially in the shoulders) with it a few years ago. Those last few years I had started emphasizing whole wheat and ate very little refined wheat. That could mean that WGA is what gives me a problem rather than gluten, and that I'd be fine with white flour. I'm not going to bother finding out though, as I'm perfectly happy not eating wheat. I have a much easier time keeping my weight down now, as replacing wheat products with other things like more fruits, vegetables and starchy tubers seems to work much better for me in terms of satiety.
    LastBottleWines

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    • #62
      Originally posted by jimhensen View Post
      lol, yes, because everyone at 45 is really doing horribly eating grains.
      Ah yes, the arrogance of youth. I remember it well! Jim, life has a way of teaching you it's lessons, whether you want to learn them or not. Make it easy on yourself, pay attention. Because I can promise you this~ you can't BS your way around the truth.


      FWIW, 45 is just about when my body stopped waiting for me to 'get it' and slapped back. And from personal observation with people in my age group, 45 is just about when they started developing things like IBS, fibromyalgia, RA, GERD, skin rashes, shingles, arthritis, type II diabetes, obesity (when they had always been slim) and a whole list of other autoimmune issues.

      It's your body, your choice. But what if the rest of us are right?

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Finnegans Wake View Post
        While I agree that our cumulative intake of wheat, corn, sugar, and industrial oils is excessive, does that mean we should reduce all but one of them and think that we are eating the optimal diet? One could remove grains but continue to eat sugar and still fall below the SAD intake of carbohydrate, not suffer obesity or serum glucose regulation issues... but is that the best way to eat?

        Eating what occasionally for people who do not suffer any gastric issues may not be a big deal. But the point is that there are plenty of more nutritious options at every meal. I may not sweat having a pizza on Friday night, but the rest of the week I can find more healthful foods. Isn't that the point?
        I agree, I just think the "blame it all on Wheat" train is running a bit too fast these days. "Wheat Belly" is a good example, if you read that book you'd think that what is the cause of everything bad in the world.

        The reality is that I think most people could live long, healthy lives with wheat in their diet, probably lot's of it. The problem with the SAD isn't wheat, it's almost everything. The meat is is garbage, the veggies are garbage, the oil is garbage. Add that together and you get a garbage diet.

        Once again, I eschew wheat for better alternatives. For my carbs, I have potatoes, sweet potates, and white rice. However, if someone wants to have some bread and they don't have any side effects and they are healthy, then I don't see any problem with it.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Nady View Post
          Ah yes, the arrogance of youth. I remember it well! Jim, life has a way of teaching you it's lessons, whether you want to learn them or not. Make it easy on yourself, pay attention. Because I can promise you this~ you can't BS your way around the truth.


          FWIW, 45 is just about when my body stopped waiting for me to 'get it' and slapped back. And from personal observation with people in my age group, 45 is just about when they started developing things like IBS, fibromyalgia, RA, GERD, skin rashes, shingles, arthritis, type II diabetes, obesity (when they had always been slim) and a whole list of other autoimmune issues.

          It's your body, your choice. But what if the rest of us are right?
          And please link me to a study that links any of those things to grains in non celiac people.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by jimhensen View Post
            The bias is already built into the study. A lot of people that don't eat grains do so because of problems they have with grains. It also depends what they are substituting the grains for in their diet. If they are eating grains instead of vegetables they would probably be worse off. If you eliminate one thing from your diet, you have to replace it with something else. So there are so many variables in a study like this.
            It would have to be specifically with people who don't have celiac or gluten sensitivity or anything. It wouldn't be that hard to find people like that (as I'm one of them). In any study like this you'd need to replace something with whole grains so that variable exists for both whole grains vs refined grains, and whole grains vs no grains. Either way it's probably flawed but it would be interesting to see something like whole wheat vs white rice or potatoes.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Nady View Post
              Ah yes, the arrogance of youth. I remember it well! Jim, life has a way of teaching you it's lessons, whether you want to learn them or not. Make it easy on yourself, pay attention. Because I can promise you this~ you can't BS your way around the truth.


              FWIW, 45 is just about when my body stopped waiting for me to 'get it' and slapped back. And from personal observation with people in my age group, 45 is just about when they started developing things like IBS, fibromyalgia, RA, GERD, skin rashes, shingles, arthritis, type II diabetes, obesity (when they had always been slim) and a whole list of other autoimmune issues.

              It's your body, your choice. But what if the rest of us are right?
              I don't think "what if the rest of us are right?" is a valid question, because the question "what if we are all wrong" is just as easy to ask and an equally valid question.

              Plenty of populations live happily and healthily with wheat as a regular part of their diet. The fact is the SAD is not a wheat based diet, it is a crap based diet. I have extreme doubts that our societies issues are due to wheat, considering that we do almost everything wrong when it comes to lifestyle. Low activity levels, low vitamin D, lots of pollutants, lots of toxins, GM fruits and veggies and grains, industrial oils, low nutrient fruits and veggies due to poor farming practices, high prescription drug intake...and the list goes on. Our problem is a lifestyle problem, not a wheat problem. (For MOST people, people will specific allergies being an exception. But many are allergic to shellfish, that doesn't mean I'm going to stop eating shellfish.)

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              • #67
                Originally posted by bob loblaw View Post
                I don't think "what if the rest of us are right?" is a valid question, because the question "what if we are all wrong" is just as easy to ask and an equally valid question.

                Plenty of populations live happily and healthily with wheat as a regular part of their diet. The fact is the SAD is not a wheat based diet, it is a crap based diet. I have extreme doubts that our societies issues are due to wheat, considering that we do almost everything wrong when it comes to lifestyle. Low activity levels, low vitamin D, lots of pollutants, lots of toxins, GM fruits and veggies and grains, industrial oils, low nutrient fruits and veggies due to poor farming practices, high prescription drug intake...and the list goes on. Our problem is a lifestyle problem, not a wheat problem. (For MOST people, people will specific allergies being an exception. But many are allergic to shellfish, that doesn't mean I'm going to stop eating shellfish.)
                I agree that wheat obviously isn't the only problem with the SAD and some people can eat wheat their whole life and stay healthy. But wheat is also kinda pointless since it's low in nutrients, high in calories, and can cause problems for people that they might not even be aware of until they get older. The only time I can think of that wheat might be useful is for people who are starving and have no other food. It might taste good in some circumstances but from a health perspective it doesn't really have anything going for it.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by jimhensen View Post
                  And please link me to a study that links any of those things to grains in non celiac people.
                  No. Your google works. And I am not trying to change your mind anyway. Life will do that. Just wait.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Nady View Post
                    No. Your google works. And I am not trying to change your mind anyway. Life will do that. Just wait.
                    Not to mention a tonne of studies were posted in his last thread showing the harmful effects.

                    Funny we are still yet to see his study that show wheat/grains are good for you though.
                    Eating primal is not a diet, it is a way of life.
                    PS
                    Don't forget to play!

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Ribbons View Post
                      I agree that wheat obviously isn't the only problem with the SAD and some people can eat wheat their whole life and stay healthy. But wheat is also kinda pointless since it's low in nutrients, high in calories, and can cause problems for people that they might not even be aware of until they get older. The only time I can think of that wheat might be useful is for people who are starving and have no other food. It might taste good in some circumstances but from a health perspective it doesn't really have anything going for it.
                      Agreed, the only reason I see to eat wheat in normal life is simply because you enjoy it greatly. If that's the only reason someone gives me, I can't really argue with it, since life is meant to be enjoyed.

                      For me, I never eat wheat during normal life. However, I do eat some wheat on vacation or at special occasions. My rule is simple: Will this meal be a life long memory? If the answer is yes, then I eat it. So, if I'm eating at the French Laundry, I'm going to eat whatever they serve me and be happy knowing it added substance and joy to my life, whether it included wheat or sugar. However, if I'm driving past a Dunkin Donuts, that is NOT going to add any substance to my life and only a fleeting minute of joy followed by regret. So it makes no sense to stop and get a donut.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by bob loblaw View Post
                        I don't think "what if the rest of us are right?" is a valid question, because the question "what if we are all wrong" is just as easy to ask and an equally valid question.
                        I've posted my story often enough to be boring. Enough to say I know for an absolute indisputable fact that I get a very visible autoimmune reaction to wheat. And it's been 20 years since I discovered this. No MDA, no Google, actually, not even a computer to influence me. Just my own body.

                        Maybe more people should listen to their body and stop looking for studies from someone with important sounding letters after their name. The only study results that should count are the ones based on your personal reactions. Everyone is different. Everyone's goals are different. I stopped eating wheat to control my immune reactions, my sister continues to eat grains and takes immunosuppressant drugs for hers. Personal choice~

                        Except, this is a PRIMAL FORUM. Why is this being challenged all the time?

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Nady View Post
                          I've posted my story often enough to be boring. Enough to say I know for an absolute indisputable fact that I get a very visible autoimmune reaction to wheat. And it's been 20 years since I discovered this. No MDA, no Google, actually, not even a computer to influence me. Just my own body.

                          Maybe more people should listen to their body and stop looking for studies from someone with important sounding letters after their name. The only study results that should count are the ones based on your personal reactions. Everyone is different. Everyone's goals are different. I stopped eating wheat to control my immune reactions, my sister continues to eat grains and takes immunosuppressant drugs for hers. Personal choice~

                          Except, this is a PRIMAL FORUM. Why is this being challenged all the time?
                          I personally enjoy being challenged. I live primal for the most part, but I love hearing contradicting views. I want to be sure my own personal bias does not block out new information that can be relevant.

                          I 100% agree with your post. Personal experience is very important and if blocking something out works for you, then by all means block it out completely. I just think we get overboard sometimes and it's better to stay pragmatic about things. One thing I hate about the Vegan community is their sheer vitriol towards meat eaters and I don't want the paleo community to go the same way. Tolerance of opposing ideas is something lacking in today's world. (Whether it's politics, diet, religion...why can't we all just get along!)

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by bob loblaw View Post
                            I personally enjoy being challenged. I live primal for the most part, but I love hearing contradicting views. I want to be sure my own personal bias does not block out new information that can be relevant.

                            I 100% agree with your post. Personal experience is very important and if blocking something out works for you, then by all means block it out completely. I just think we get overboard sometimes and it's better to stay pragmatic about things. One thing I hate about the Vegan community is their sheer vitriol towards meat eaters and I don't want the paleo community to go the same way. Tolerance of opposing ideas is something lacking in today's world. (Whether it's politics, diet, religion...why can't we all just get along!)
                            [rant]Maybe, after 20 years, I'm tired of being challenged. Tired of telling my story, tired of hearing *Oh a little bit won't hurt* Won't hurt who?

                            I joined this board looking for the support of like minded people. Lately, it seems like everyone is jumping on the *grains aren't the devil* bandwagon. Well, you know what? All those studies about the grains other cultures/countries eat have absolutely nothing to do with this board. I really don't care what study jimhensen can pull up~ it has nothing to do with my needs, my location, my genetic history, or anything else that impacts the quality of my life. If eating grains was an option for me, I wouldn't be here, on this board discussing it~ I'd be out there, eating my baguettes.

                            Is it too much to ask for support on keeping the Primal principles, instead of all these threads intended to challenge the basics? [/rant]

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Nady View Post
                              [rant]Maybe, after 20 years, I'm tired of being challenged. Tired of telling my story, tired of hearing *Oh a little bit won't hurt* Won't hurt who?

                              I joined this board looking for the support of like minded people. Lately, it seems like everyone is jumping on the *grains aren't the devil* bandwagon. Well, you know what? All those studies about the grains other cultures/countries eat have absolutely nothing to do with this board. I really don't care what study jimhensen can pull up~ it has nothing to do with my needs, my location, my genetic history, or anything else that impacts the quality of my life. If eating grains was an option for me, I wouldn't be here, on this board discussing it~ I'd be out there, eating my baguettes.

                              Is it too much to ask for support on keeping the Primal principles, instead of all these threads intended to challenge the basics? [/rant]
                              +1
                              Eating primal is not a diet, it is a way of life.
                              PS
                              Don't forget to play!

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Nady View Post
                                Enough to say I know for an absolute indisputable fact that I get a very visible autoimmune reaction to wheat....Maybe more people should listen to their body and stop looking for studies from someone with important sounding letters after their name...Everyone is different. Everyone's goals are different.
                                Thank you. Couldn't agree more.

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