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What! There's No Such Thing As Gluten-free Grains?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by TARNIP View Post
    I've never really believed that intolerances are caused by general consumption of certain foods, as Choco mentioned earlier, there are antinutrients in just about everything we eat which leads me to believe that intolerances are more likely caused by an over-consumption of those foods. These days wheat is literally in everything so even if you think you only eat it in bread/cereal/pasta when you look at labels more carefully you begin to realize it is in your gravies, sauces, most bottled condiments and even some dairy foods such as yoghurt and icecream as wheat thickener is cheaper to use than eggs. We are literally poisoning ourselves with the stuff unknowingly...... This is why I make sure not to eat my 3-4 egg omelet every morning for breakfast as I am concerned that in about 10 years time I could possibly end up with an egg intolerance. I try to eat a seasonal rotation of different foods to avoid any more intolerance issues.........
    I don't know...it also seems that regular consumption helps mediate your food intolerances. Example: I never had issues with wheat before. However, if I were to eat wheat now, it would be a noticeable difference in digestion. 2 weeks ago I had a wedding so out of respect I ate a piece of the wedding cake. Physically I felt fine - no digestive stress, pain, no sugar crash, etc - but I was in the bathroom 4 times the next day (nothing bad just constant, like WTF?). All because of a lousy piece of cake. I've read that your body adapts to toxins in foods after awhile, and while wheat may give you stress at first, eventually you will "get used to it" and the bad reactions will disappear. I think of celiacs who have been eating wheat for life and not realizing they had issues, yet once they get off of it, they have a much more severe reaction if they come into contact with a much smaller amount. It's like your body builds up an "immune system" against bad foods, and that "immune system" disappears after awhile so you become more sensitive to bad foods. I see it time and time again where people feel terrible after going out to eat after months of being primal where it was never an issue before.

    That's not a license to eat bad food by any means! I'm simply stating that the human body is an amazing thing and it can adapt and survive on some pretty terrible things. It also goes to show you how toxic these things really are. You don't know how bad wheat and soybean oil are until you cut them out for awhile, then add them back in.
    Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 07-06-2012, 05:17 AM.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

    Comment


    • #17
      You mean like how alcoholics can drink more than people who don't drink?

      Comment


      • #18
        Buckwheat, of the Rhubarb family, technically not a grain, has prolamines

        Some celiacs report that they bloat and have pain after eating kasha or 100% buckwheat flour pancakes. It has lectins too. Some evolutionary trick has put a toxic peptide chain into buckwheat despite its far distant relation to the other grains.

        What! There's No Such Thing As Gluten-free Grains?
        That can't be right!!!" you say. But indeed it is; it's true! ALL grains contain gluten.

        http://urbanposer.blogspot.com/2012/01/what-theres-no-such-thing-as-gluten_02.html

        There is much confusion surrounding the enigma that we call 'Gluten'. This is largely because almost all of the data that the majority of the medical community is going on has not been revisited or updated in as much as 60 YEARS. Now that's some old information! And from the looks of it there are no plans to update that anytime soon.

        So before we move on, let's try to define gluten. If you look up 'gluten' in the dictionary, you will find that webster's definition is ALSO based on that old and outdated information; referring ONLY to wheat, rye, barley and oats. However, what we now know from modern studies is that "gluten" is actually a mixture of proteins found in ALL grains. It is composed of two primary 'subfractions' known as Prolamines and Glutelins.

        The prolamine known as "gliadin" is the most studied in medical literature; primarily as it relates to Celiac Disease. Many people, including doctors, do not understand that the prolamine, "gliadin" is not the ONLY type of gluten out there, nor is it the ONLY one reeking havoc in peoples bodies. It is, however, the ONLY one that is routinely tested for and since recent studies have identified least 400 other gluten proteins out there, you may not be getting the right test done!

        So, let's take a look at some of the other 'prolamines' out there...

        The Prolamine Fraction of Proteins in Grains

        Grain Prolamine % Total Protein
        Wheat Gliadin 69%
        Rye Secalinin 30-50%
        Oats Avenin 16%
        Barley Hordein 46-52%
        Millet Panicin 40%
        Corn Zien 55%
        Rice Orzenin 5%
        Sorgum Kafirin 52%

        *This is excerpted. There's more to the full web page, including a video by
        Dr. Peter Osborne.
        "Science is not belief but the will to find out." ~ Anonymous
        "Culture of the mind must be subservient to the heart." ~ Gandhi
        "The flogging will continue until morale improves." ~ Unknown

        Comment


        • #19
          All life has proteins. My reading of the above is:

          (a) All grain proteins can be put into two classes
          (b) One of the proteins in one of the classes is bad
          (c) Therefore all proteins in that class are bad
          (d) Therefore all grains/seeds containing that class are bad

          I think more science is required, especially support for the statement that: "gliadin" is not the ONLY type of gluten out there, nor is it the ONLY one reeking havoc in peoples bodies
          Four years Primal with influences from Jaminet & Shanahan and a focus on being anti-inflammatory. Using Primal to treat CVD and prevent stents from blocking free of drugs.

          Eat creatures nose-to-tail (animal, fowl, fish, crustacea, molluscs), a large variety of vegetables (raw, cooked and fermented, including safe starches), dairy (cheese & yoghurt), occasional fruit, cocoa, turmeric & red wine

          Comment


          • #20
            @peril,

            Definitely more food scientists ought to have explored this. This specific study was from 12 years ago:
            Buckwheat Prolamin and Its Antioxidative Activity (2001)
            Takanori KUSANO, Hiroko CHIUE and Kimikazu IWAMI

            Department of Nutrition, Kobe-Gakuin University
            Ikawadani-cho Arise, Nishi-ku, Kobe 651-2180, Japan
            Department of Biological Resource Chemistry, Kyoto Prefectural University
            Shimogamo Nakaragi-cho, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8522, Japan

            Source: http://lnmcp.mf.uni-lj.si/Fago/SYMPO.../2001s-629.pdf

            Quote

            ABSTRACT
            Buckwheat prolamins were most effectively extracted from buckwheat (Fagopyrum
            esculentum Moench) flour by 55% n-propanol and were 3.37 to 4.95% of total protein under
            the most efficient conditions for extraction (at 60°C). Amino acid analysis data showed that
            buckwheat prolamin didn't exhibit one of characteristics of cereal prolamins, the high
            glutamate/glutamine and proline content.
            The antioxidative activity of buckwheat prolamin
            was investigated. The peroxide value under powder model systems and radical scavenging
            effect were evaluated. Buckwheat prolamin was effective inhibitor of the oxidation of linoleic
            acid.


            INTRODUCTION
            Oxidative deterioration of unsaturated lipid-rich foods doesn't only lessen their tasty or
            nutritive value but also brings about toxicity in an extreme case. Food manufactures make use
            of antioxidants and often package their goods under anaerobic conditions for prevention of
            possible troubles. The use of synthetic antioxidants such as butylhydroxyanisole and
            butylhydroxytoluene tends to be recently avoided because of a doubt upon their safety for
            health (Grice 1988, Witschi, 1986).

            Instead, much interest has been directed toward the
            development of natural and more safe antioxidants, e.g. amino acids (Gopala et al., 1994,
            Kawashima et al., 1979), peptides (Yamaguchi et al., 1979), proteins (Laakso 1984) and so on
            (Nakatani 1990, Namiki 1990). Among such promising foodstuffs are cereal prolamins
            represented by wheat gliadin (Iwami 1987), maize zein (Wang 1991) and barley hordein
            (Chiue 1996).

            In previous paper (Iwami et al. 1987, 1988) we have offered a plausible
            explanation for the mechanism from a physical rather than chemical point of views. Although
            all of prolamins are soluble in aq. alcohols, they vary considerable in their other properties,
            notable MW and pI values and amino acid compositions.


            While cereal prolamin has been
            intensively studied in relation to the quality of the grain for baking (wheat), malting (barley),
            and feeding to domestic animals, we know relatively little about dicotyledonous prolamins.
            Our object is to investigate the properties of buckwheat prolamin and to check its
            antioxidative activity.


            MATERIALS AND METHODS
            Commercially available common buckwheat (Fagopyrum esculentum) was used. The husks
            of the seed were removed and ground.
            Flour was extracted with 0.5M NaCl before alcohol extractions. The range of concentration
            of the three alcholols tested, I-propanol (n-propyl alcohol), 2-propanol (iso-propyl alcohol)
            and ethyl alcohol, was 30-80% (w/w) at room temperature and 60°C.

            Nitrogen contents and
            Protein content of the extracts were determined by the Kjeldahl method and the Lowry method
            using bovine serum albumin as a standard. The protein fraction was thoroughly dialyzed
            against the aqueous alcohol and distilled water, lyophilized and. pulverized. Wheat gliadin was
            prepared in a similar manner from their respective flours for reference. Other chemicals were
            of analytical grade and commercially available, and used as such without further purification.

            SDS-PAGE. Extracted proteins of buckwheat were electrophoresed using the discontinuous
            buffer system of Laemmle (Laemmle 1970)on a slab gel containing 12.5% acrylamide.

            Amino acid analysis
            Protein samples were hydrolyzed in evacuated sealed tubes in 6N HCI at 110°C for 22hrs
            and then analyzed with an amino acid analyzer. Tryptophan and cystine content were not
            determined.

            Powder model system for autoxidation
            Buckwheat prolamin was suspended in an equivoluminal mixture of chloroform and
            methanol containing linoleic-palmitic(2: 1) acid at 10wt% of protein. These samples were then
            put in a 60°C or 100°C incubator without moisture control after completely removing the
            organic solvent. Definite amounts of the respective samples were taken out after specific
            periods and assayed for both accumulated hydroperoxides and residual fatty acids. PV at each
            sampling time during the storage period is, for convenience, expressed as the absorbance at
            500nm under the routine assay conditions. Unimpaired linoleic ans palmitic aicd, which were
            almost quantitatively extracted with chloroform-methanol (1: 1), were esterified with PNBDI
            and determined by HPLC. a-Corn starch was used as a reference control not having
            antioxidative activity throughout this experiment.

            Radical-scavengging effect
            In the 1.0 x 10-4 M ethanol solution of DPPH, tested compounds were added. The solution
            was shaken vigorously and kept in the dark for 30 min. The absorbance of the samples was
            measured on a spectrophotometer at 517nm against a blank of ethanol without DPPH.

            RESULTS AND DISCUSSION
            There has been little work on buckwheat prolamin except for the standpoint of gluten sensitive
            enteropathy
            (Skerritt 1986, Friis 1988). There are probably several reasons for this,
            including the low content and the problems in purifying single homogenous proteins.
            Prolamins were extracted from mature common buckwheat flour with aqueous alcohols. Most
            effective solvent was 55% n-propanol and more prolamin was extracted at 60°C, which was
            used in preparation of prolamin unless otherwise stated. The amount of prolamin was from
            3.37 to 4.95 % of total protein.


            Cereal prolamin is generally rich in glutamate/glutamine and
            proline
            (Shewry et aI., 1994), but as in buckwheat the combined proportions of these two
            amino acids vary from 11.1 to 20.4 % well below average in other cereals. Buckwheat
            prolamin was composed of many kinds of subunits polyperptides.
            Their molecular weight
            from SDS-PAGE data was smaller than that of most cereal prolamins which were about 30,000
            to 90,000 (Shewry et aI., 1994).

            Although it had been reported that cereal prolamin exhibited antioxidative activity against
            linoleic acid, the acceptable hypothesis had not been offered so far. Buckwheat prolamin was
            found to exhibit antioxidative effect in powder model systems and radical scavenging activity
            .

            At the same time non-protein antioxidant compounds from buckwheat have been reported
            (Oomah et al. 1996, Watanabe et aI., 1997). A possibility that tocopherols may function as a
            primary antioxidant can be excluded by the finding that the washing treatment of buckwheat
            prolamine with several kinds of organic solvents scarcely lowered its antioxidative activity. In
            addition, it seems unlikely that flavonoids are kept back in buckwheat prolamin, because the
            protein in preparing it has not only been extracted with 55% n-propanol but also adequately
            dialyzed against the same solvent.

            To understand the relationship between the antioxidative activity and physical and chemical
            properties of buckwheat prolamin, the evaluation of antioxidative activity of buckwheat
            prolamin should be performed at the subunit level.

            In any case, further investigation is required to elucidate the mechanism of antioxidation and
            its practical application to food storage.
            "Science is not belief but the will to find out." ~ Anonymous
            "Culture of the mind must be subservient to the heart." ~ Gandhi
            "The flogging will continue until morale improves." ~ Unknown

            Comment


            • #21
              This thread makes me want to eat a sandwich out of spite.

              The oldest recorded man on Earth survives mostly on quinoa.

              http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2...ocumented?lite

              How can this be? Quinoa contains deadly saponins! Yikes. He also eats an extremely high carbohydrate diet loaded with starch and consumes very little animal fat and protein. He eats mostly skunk meat for an animal source.

              As bad as grains are, they probably aren't what's killing us. Soy and PUFA's are the issue. We're dying from a toxic unsaturated:saturated fat ratio, at least that's what I believe. A diet high in wheat could give you bad allergies, digestive issues and respiratory problems, but I don't think it's causing heart issues. That's the bad fats IMO. Wheat avoidance I understand, and to a lesser extent oats, but the non-gluten grains I feel are mostly benign.
              Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 08-18-2013, 08:58 PM.
              Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

              Comment


              • #22
                I mostly avoid bad oils, and while ii rarely make grains got myself, I don't totally avoid them either. I don't know, I feel good. I find that given my current lifestyle it's not worth it to militantly avoid grains. I just limit my consumption quite a lot. If I had less friends/family and didn't have to go out as much I wouldn't eat them at all.

                I can't imagine living in constant fear of the stuff. The whole 30 lifestyle is totally unsustainable for me.
                I used to seriously post here, now I prefer to troll.

                Comment


                • #23
                  One more reason I laugh at people who just eat "some" grains and not others. It's all for the rats and birds, it's not people food.
                  Crohn's, doing SCD

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Knifegill View Post
                    One more reason I laugh at people who just eat "some" grains and not others. It's all for the rats and birds, it's not people food.
                    For what's it worth, "skunk meat" is from a poor translation, as those people living in the andes, living on a quinoa-centric diet, there's NO skunks in their environment. That "skunk meat" is actually a reference to coriander which flavors that meat, of a indigenous small animal, certainly impossible to be skunk. Skunks cannot be found south of Northern or Central Mexico or certainly Guatemala as a maximal limit, to be generous to animalistic tenacity.

                    I'm not a primal/paleo nazi type, far from it. Though I can understand people who feel the need or want to go that hard-core route, at least to get things on the fast track for health or weight loss or both. And I feel I can assist/coach people/clients to do that, if they wish to.

                    For myself, not needing to lose significant weight, never having any major weight issues, I came to primal due to my life-long seeking & interest in optimizing health & happiness, through diet & lifestyle. My issues were more inflammation in & around discs & limited athletic abilities & loss of sponteniety (ie dancing) stemming from that inflammation & pain.

                    I will eat some grains, rice/rice pasta, oats, quinoa & even the occassional slice of pizza, very rare.

                    Ice cream has been a recent indulgence. It's gonna end soon though, it's about run it's course...
                    "Science is not belief but the will to find out." ~ Anonymous
                    "Culture of the mind must be subservient to the heart." ~ Gandhi
                    "The flogging will continue until morale improves." ~ Unknown

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                      This thread makes me want to eat a sandwich out of spite.

                      How can this be? Quinoa contains deadly saponins! Yikes. He also eats an extremely high carbohydrate diet loaded with starch and consumes very little animal fat and protein. He eats mostly skunk meat for an animal source.

                      As bad as grains are, they probably aren't what's killing us. Soy and PUFA's are the issue. We're dying from a toxic unsaturated:saturated fat ratio, at least that's what I believe. A diet high in wheat could give you bad allergies, digestive issues and respiratory problems, but I don't think it's causing heart issues. That's the bad fats IMO. Wheat avoidance I understand, and to a lesser extent oats, but the non-gluten grains I feel are mostly benign.
                      #1 Enjoy your sandwich, if you so choose to have one (or more). #2 Quinoa's saponin's (a type of glycoside) are mostly washed away from repeated rinsing. Technically quinoa is a seed, not a grain, just a detail. There is no danger of saponin poisoning (which is real btw ), from properly rinsed quinoa. #3 Some people never eat much soy but they overconsume wheat & other modern grains & they develop serious issues. I see most people's weight issues or health issues, in our modern society's context, as an amalgamation and a synergistic negative effect of all the various poor food & lifestyle choices, all cascading together over time, to harm or wreck people's health. Not just a simplistic broad "it's about 03-06 ratios, & rancid or trans fat oils", though I really feel those are keys issues to correct, for anyone serious about primal. Primal addresses all the various food toxins, exercise approaches, stress-reduction, happiness-increasing philosophies/activities, all while offering a 80/20 sane, sustainable model, which is different & imo, stands apart from other dogmatic, perfectionistic systems (mostly unsustainable perfectionsim).

                      I tell my cousin, repeatedly, she needs to clear out her pantry & fridge, of all the crappy oils and chemicals, NOT JUST cut out grains & processed sugar products. Mayo & Salad dressing is a hard one for many people, as canola & soy are even in "health food" & "organic" brands. I see salad dressing advertised as "Olive Oil" based & "Organic!" on their front labels, but on the back, it's mainly canola with a small % of olive oil. Making one's own mayo, for most people, is a hassle they can't wrap their minds around...
                      Last edited by Betorq; 08-19-2013, 02:55 AM.
                      "Science is not belief but the will to find out." ~ Anonymous
                      "Culture of the mind must be subservient to the heart." ~ Gandhi
                      "The flogging will continue until morale improves." ~ Unknown

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Cross-reactivity/reactions from non-gluten foods: seeds, tubers & dairy

                        http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread31287.html Post #18 from March 2012

                        activia Senior Member





                        Just be careful with cross-reactivity...
                        "Finally, we also now know that when you are gluten intolerant – which 33% (if not more) of you are – you will also “cross-react” with other foods that have a similar “molecular signature” to gluten and its components. Unfortunately, the list of these foods (shown below) contains all grains, which is why some medical practitioners (myself included) recommend not just a gluten-free diet, but an entirely grain-free diet. As you can see, it also contains other foods like dairy (alpha & beta casein, casomorphin, milk butyrophilin) and coffee (which is a very common cross-reactant).

                        alpha-caesin
                        beta-caesin
                        casomorphin
                        milk butyrophilin
                        cow’s milk
                        american cheese
                        chocolate
                        coffee
                        all cereal grains
                        quinoa
                        amaranth
                        buckwheat
                        tapioca
                        rice
                        potato
                        corn
                        sesame
                        "Science is not belief but the will to find out." ~ Anonymous
                        "Culture of the mind must be subservient to the heart." ~ Gandhi
                        "The flogging will continue until morale improves." ~ Unknown

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Betorq View Post
                          That can't be right!!!" you say. But indeed it is; it's true! ALL grains contain gluten.

                          http://urbanposer.blogspot.com/2012/01/what-theres-no-such-thing-as-gluten_02.html

                          There is much confusion surrounding the enigma that we call 'Gluten'. This is largely because almost all of the data that the majority of the medical community is going on has not been revisited or updated in as much as 60 YEARS. Now that's some old information! And from the looks of it there are no plans to update that anytime soon.

                          So before we move on, let's try to define gluten. If you look up 'gluten' in the dictionary, you will find that webster's definition is ALSO based on that old and outdated information; referring ONLY to wheat, rye, barley and oats. However, what we now know from modern studies is that "gluten" is actually a mixture of proteins found in ALL grains. It is composed of two primary 'subfractions' known as Prolamines and Glutelins.

                          The prolamine known as "gliadin" is the most studied in medical literature; primarily as it relates to Celiac Disease. Many people, including doctors, do not understand that the prolamine, "gliadin" is not the ONLY type of gluten out there, nor is it the ONLY one reeking havoc in peoples bodies. It is, however, the ONLY one that is routinely tested for and since recent studies have identified least 400 other gluten proteins out there, you may not be getting the right test done!

                          So, let's take a look at some of the other 'prolamines' out there...

                          The Prolamine Fraction of Proteins in Grains

                          Grain Prolamine % Total Protein
                          Wheat Gliadin 69%
                          Rye Secalinin 30-50%
                          Oats Avenin 16%
                          Barley Hordein 46-52%
                          Millet Panicin 40%
                          Corn Zien 55%
                          Rice Orzenin 5%
                          Sorgum Kafirin 52%

                          *This is excerpted. There's more to the full web page, including a video by
                          Dr. Peter Osborne.
                          Terrible research, and I'm far from an expert in the field. I just happened to spend a couple hours tonight on it.

                          1. Gliadin makes up about half of gluten in wheat. The other half is glutelin. Gliadin causes Celiac and other nasty diseases, but it's glutelin that causes most allergies involving wheat. I *believe* it's glutelin we should be worried about, not gliadin (unless you're celiac).
                          2. The article lists prolamine (the broader category for which gliadin belongs) percentages as if all of the plants had gliadin. Actually, gliadin is only found in wheat and a few of its cousins. There is a different type of prolamine in most grains.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I think you just need to try foods and see how it goes.

                            I can't eat nightshades- I had redpepper and eggplant last night for the first time in a year and feel like crap-like I could go eat McDonalds and feel better. Shrimp will put me in the ER.

                            I'm beginning to think I don't have any issue with wheat, beyond that I overeat it and push out good calories. I can have the occasional bread and not see any impact on the scale like I do with rice and potatos. I also feel fine after eating it. Corn on the other hand makes me bloat and gives me mouth ulcers.

                            To me, the main problem with grains in the SAD is just that people eat them too much. The base of the diet should be fruits and vegetables, not grain. It's really a grain based diet when you think about it. Grains at every meal:
                            Breakfast is likely to be cereal, oats OR some kind of protein with bread.
                            Lunch is a small portion of protein with a big portion of bread
                            Dinner is similar- small portion of protein, then rice, grains or more bread.

                            Grains just don't bring enough to the table to be eaten in that quantity. Then if you eat a shit ton of one food, of course the bad qualities are magnified.

                            I used to think the opiates in grains made me overeat them, but now I think it was more about malnutrition. I ate a croissant 2 weeks ago and haven't wanted bread since. Now I do have it as an occasional treat, so have put it back in my life, but I'm not really compelled to eat it.

                            http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                            Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              As someone who felt horrible on a diet of meat and vegetables (with no fruit and starches), I believe some of us need carbohydrates more than others, including from grains we can tolerate. I was never attracted to rice, and do not miss wheat and white potatoes at all, but I also found in surprise that I got foot cramps due to lack of magnesium despite copious amounts of broth. Seeing I eliminated buckwheat from my diet, and it is a good source of magnesium, and I do miss it so well... I think that could be in part because it may actually be beneficial for me to eat buckwheat & millet. Not with every meal, obviously.
                              My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                              When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                I think some people do have horrible issues with grains/gluten. A lot of the success stories sound like they are people who were flat out sick in awful ways and then healed themselves by eliminating grains. I read their stories and am like, holy shit, I may have been fat and struggling to lose weight, but was never that ill. Sounds like they were going thru a slow death. But obviously, most people do not have that reaction to grains or it would not be such a staple of our diet.

                                http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                                Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

                                Comment

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