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  • #16
    My son is coming for dinner tonight and I am going to make him Nasi Goreng, wait for it.... with actual real rice grains.
    Female, age 51, 5' 9"
    SW - 183 (Jan 22, 2012), CW - 159, GW - healthy.

    Met my 2012 goals by losing 24 pounds.
    2013 goals are to get fit and strong!

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    • #17
      Troll is bad at google. Here's a couple just for anybody impressionable who might make the mistake of thinking that the studies aren't actually out there:

      Effects of wheat germ agglutinin on h... [Toxicol Appl Pharmacol. 2009] - PubMed - NCBI

      How NKG2D ligands trigger autoimmunity? [Hum Immunol. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI

      Gliadin, zonulin and gut permeability:... [Scand J Gastroenterol. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI
      The Champagne of Beards

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Apex Predator View Post
        The only grains I avoid are the ones that contain gluten. I eat all others, including rice daily.

        I don't need a scientific study to tell me shitting blood, undigested food, intestinal pain, and my sinuses closing up means I shouldn't do something.

        If gluten is harmless to you, or you want to eat it anyway, knock yourself out. Why do you care what we do?

        Are you the type of person that lectures people wherever you go about how everyone should do things the way you do? Or only on the web, where you don't have to see people rolling their eyes at you?
        I agree with your viewpoint, but I think Jim's point is valid.

        On Paleo web-sites and forums, "Science" is always used to back our viewpoint up. (Yet, we often use the same epidemiological crap studies the Low Fat side use.) So, he's asking for a study to show that wheat is bad for us. Obviously, wheat is bad for YOU, since you appear to have a fairly strong allergy to it. But for those who have no strong allergy (probably 95% of the population), is it really a bad thing?

        I don't eat much wheat, but it doesn't bother me either. I feel like the main problem with wheat is the way we eat it, rather than the wheat itself. Eating a Big Mac or a processed meat sandwich or an industrial pizza are not bad because of the wheat, they are bad in almost every way.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Apex Predator View Post
          The only grains I avoid are the ones that contain gluten. I eat all others, including rice daily.

          I don't need a scientific study to tell me shitting blood, undigested food, intestinal pain, and my sinuses closing up means I shouldn't do something.

          If gluten is harmless to you, or you want to eat it anyway, knock yourself out. Why do you care what we do?

          Are you the type of person that lectures people wherever you go about how everyone should do things the way you do? Or only on the web, where you don't have to see people rolling their eyes at you?
          BTW, I am just interested in the studies, not in Jim's viewpoint. It's pretty clear he is here to get attention, not to find information. However, I am always interested in finding more good information, whether it validates or counters my viewpoint.

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          • #20
            All those studies show how bad grains are. We all agree, like filtered cigarettes being better than unfiltered ones, whole grains are better than refined grains.
            You still have yet to post a study showing whole grains are good for you, only better than refined grains. If big agra and the food companies thought eating grains was better than not eating them they would have done the study - they haven't which speaks volumes.
            Last edited by Dirlot; 07-02-2012, 07:24 AM.
            Eating primal is not a diet, it is a way of life.
            PS
            Don't forget to play!

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            • #21
              Interesting thread, I wonder how bad grains are as well. It doesn't cause any problems for me. The only thing I could come up with is the fact that you are basically just eating calories while you could also eat meat (calories + nutrients).

              Neither do I understand why sugar is bad. I understand it is bad used in excessive amounts. Just like saturated fat is bad in excessive amounts.
              The only thing I'm truly convinced of is that PUFAs are bad. Or, bad in excessive amounts as well, but this happens very quick.
              well then

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              • #22
                Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                Wow, all of these studies are done in a lab exposing piles of cells to certain things found in grains. Where are the human studies? How can you say that when you eat grains that it will interact with the cells in the same way that it does in a lab? You can't.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by jimhensen View Post
                  Wow, all of these studies are done in a lab exposing piles of cells to certain things found in grains. Where are the human studies? How can you say that when you eat grains that it will interact with the cells in the same way that it does in a lab? You can't.
                  And you can't say they don't.
                  As I have said all your studies show how bad grains are, still waiting for you to show us they are good.
                  Last edited by Dirlot; 07-02-2012, 07:38 AM.
                  Eating primal is not a diet, it is a way of life.
                  PS
                  Don't forget to play!

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                  • #24
                    A very interesting recent study written up in the NYT
                    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/01/op...&smid=fb-share
                    and the original study here
                    JAMA Network | JAMA: The Journal of the American Medical Association | Effects of Dietary Composition on Energy Expenditure During Weight-Loss MaintenanceDietary Composition During Weight-Loss Maintenance

                    The conclusion
                    The low-fat [read high carb and grains] diet produced changes in energy expenditure and serum leptin42 - 44 that would predict weight regain. In addition, this conventionally recommended diet had unfavorable effects on most of the metabolic syndrome components studied herein. In contrast, the very low-carbohydrate diet had the most beneficial effects on energy expenditure and several metabolic syndrome components, but this restrictive regimen may increase cortisol excretion and CRP. The low–glycemic index diet appears to have qualitatively similar, although smaller, metabolic benefits to the very low-carbohydrate diet, possibly without the deleterious effects on physiological stress and chronic inflammation.

                    Low carbohydrate diets show significant benefits but as we have all seen here and see to accept it is not a good idea to VLC for extended periods of time.
                    Eating primal is not a diet, it is a way of life.
                    PS
                    Don't forget to play!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Dirlot View Post
                      All those studies show how bad grains are. We all agree, like filtered cigarettes being better than unfiltered ones, whole grains are better than refined grains.
                      You still have yet to post a study showing whole grains are good for you, only better than refined grains. If big agra and the food companies thought eating grains was better than not eating them they would have done the study - they haven't which speaks volumes.
                      The first study I posted said that refined grains has no effect on heart disease but the more whole grains you eat the more of a preventative effect it shows. It has nothing to do with replacing refined grains with whole grains.

                      Also, I'm not even trying to say that grains are good for you. I am just trying to say that in part of a balanced diet with meat, fruits, and veggies they will have no ill effect on at least 95% of the population...and could possibly have an added benefit, but my main point is not that they are good for you...it is that for the great majority, they aren't bad for you.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Dirlot View Post
                        A very interesting recent study written up in the NYT
                        http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/01/op...&smid=fb-share
                        and the original study here
                        JAMA Network | JAMA: The Journal of the American Medical Association | Effects of Dietary Composition on Energy Expenditure During Weight-Loss MaintenanceDietary Composition During Weight-Loss Maintenance

                        The conclusion
                        The low-fat [read high carb and grains] diet produced changes in energy expenditure and serum leptin42 - 44 that would predict weight regain. In addition, this conventionally recommended diet had unfavorable effects on most of the metabolic syndrome components studied herein. In contrast, the very low-carbohydrate diet had the most beneficial effects on energy expenditure and several metabolic syndrome components, but this restrictive regimen may increase cortisol excretion and CRP. The low–glycemic index diet appears to have qualitatively similar, although smaller, metabolic benefits to the very low-carbohydrate diet, possibly without the deleterious effects on physiological stress and chronic inflammation.

                        Low carbohydrate diets show significant benefits but as we have all seen here and see to accept it is not a good idea to VLC for extended periods of time.
                        In my opinion that has more to do with macros than grains.

                        My main argument is this: if someone eats meats, vegetables, and fruits (enough that they get enough protein and micro nutrients) then they can round out the rest of their calories with grains without having an ill effect on their health. I don't think there is any study or any evidence (other than a ton of n=1's on this site) that can say otherwise.

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                        • #27
                          But who cares if for a lot of people they bad?
                          The better question is why eat graisn? They relatively tasteless on their own, have limited nutritional content, are very high in calories and have a high GI. There is no reason to "round" out your calories with grains. Much better to eat protein, fat and veg to easily get all your nutrients and all the flavour.
                          Eating primal is not a diet, it is a way of life.
                          PS
                          Don't forget to play!

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by jimhensen View Post
                            In my opinion that has more to do with macros than grains.
                            But the study is showing how bad our conventionally recommended diet is...which is very telling.
                            Eating primal is not a diet, it is a way of life.
                            PS
                            Don't forget to play!

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by jimhensen View Post
                              In my opinion that has more to do with macros than grains.

                              My main argument is this: if someone eats meats, vegetables, and fruits (enough that they get enough protein and micro nutrients) then they can round out the rest of their calories with grains without having an ill effect on their health. I don't think there is any study or any evidence (other than a ton of n=1's on this site) that can say otherwise.
                              On a low carb diet, there's not going to be much room for grains in your carb budget after fruits and vegs, and if you are eating root veg and not eating a ton of calories, there will be virtually none.
                              Lifting Journal

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                              • #30
                                Basically grains are not terrible, but there are much better options
                                well then

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