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  • Originally posted by Grumpycakes View Post
    So then laugh at him in your head and move on. Gawdamn.
    Remember that giant hamburger you posted... I wouldn't have ordered that.

    Also, I may eat or post things that you wouldn't. Seems about right.
    Personal choices and all.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
    ~Friedrich Nietzsche
    And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

    Comment


    • Whatever Jims issue is, by trolling or playing devils advocate has managed to bring together a vast amount of collective data as to why grains are generally not the healthiest food option.
      Outside of those individuals who are true Coeliac, and those with a demonstrated sensitivity (my self included), there is still quite a few individuals most likely out there who are having a negative reaction to Gluten & don't even know it & anecdotal evidence indicates these numbers are on the rise, I was one of these and only found out when I dropped wheat, I do still eat a bit of rice and other grains occassionally, but not at home.
      Sure a lot of people can use them to fill their bellies but that doesn't mean they are healthy, I think all agree on that, even Jim has stated words to that effect, the proviso being that once you have got your daily quota of micronutrients, then it really doesnt matter whether you use carbs or fat to fulfill the energy requirement.
      The question still remains that if you do use starchy grains as a filler, are you really getting adequate supply of micronutrients from fruits, vegetables, meat, organs, bone, nuts if the high GI & GL starch is filling you up, my feeling is that with nutrient quality of food being generally much poorer and lack of activity supporting lower volumes of food intake it is likely that most people only get the bare minimum, their nutrient stores are basically empty and their bodies are totally dependant on daily dietary intake to supply essential nutrients.
      This lack of nutrient stores along with the insulin roller coaster crashing regularly causing severe food craving between meals which indicates & leads to a variety of slow onset diseases and conditions. I found when we switched off the grains & dairy, the first week or two there was between meal cravings, which we filled with fruit & nuts, but gradually these subsided and we have gone naturally to a 16/8 fasting eating regimen, my meat, fruit and veg intake has not really increased, it is still about the same, but I am just not eating the excess carbohydrates, I have lost a little bit of weight, 5-6lb over two months, but this is with significantly increased exercise. So this tells me that a large part of what I was eating wasn't even getting absorbed, it was just mechanical load on the gut, I have done a number of 24 hour fasts consecutively with out having to supress hunger pains, just didn't need to eat desperately.
      These are all indicators for me that my body is much more content with it's access to micronutrients and has an ample supply stored away without having to demand top ups every 3 hours.
      Do I feel the urge for grains, not really, sometimes just a little when someone is downing some soft, white freshly baked bread, but I think that is mainly a psychological pleasure response in the brain, looking at bread doesn't drive it, it is the freshly baked smell as for the rest, pasta, pizza etc. no inclination whatsoever, although I have eaten it when served, just to be polite, but it doesn't thrill me, just belly filler.
      "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

      Comment


      • Found an interesting paper this morning on gluten and the brain. Patients presenting with neurological problems without enteropathy.

        https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...hTWZjaFEMclIdw

        I see we've all settled on wheat being shit for food, and Jim and Stacking hanging their hats on gluten sensitivity being extremely rare.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by MrsC View Post
          I removed gluten products from my diet for several months, then added them back in with no problem. I used to live in Italy, and missed my pasta.

          The thing is, though, I was already eating a whole foods diet, so "removing the gluten" primarily consisted of me eliminating pasta once or twice a week, and the occasional loaf of homemade bread.

          Most people who eat a standard American diet eliminate tons of junk/processed foods when they eliminate gluten. I don't doubt they feel better getting those out of their system, but the health improvements they experience may not necessarily be because they're allergic or sensitive to wheat.

          Threads like this are worthwhile, because they encourage people to think about what they are doing with their diet. It may reinforce what they already know, or it may cause them to adopt other changes that give them more satisfaction with their overall daily diet.
          Sure, but when re-introduction of gluten in isolation then causes problems as it does for me, and many others, bang- gluten intolerance. I'm happy for you that you can handle the occasional gluten. I wish I could. Similarly, I can eat food that has long since passed it's expiration date, food that's been sitting out for a long time, etc. with no ill effects. The old "iron stomach". But neither wheat nor food that's gone "bad" are good foundations for diets, regardless of the severity of the consequences. Yes, some people can handle some things better than others, and there may hyperbole associated with the diet. But overall, primal is a good thing.
          Lifting Journal

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Apex Predator View Post
            Sure, but when re-introduction of gluten in isolation then causes problems as it does for me, and many others, bang- gluten intolerance.
            I will respond to this with a quote I read on another forum, that is EXTREMELY relevant.

            Originally posted by popupwindow View Post
            Actually [eliminating wheat for a period of time] will show you nothing. Ditto if you eat low carb/fat for a month then re-introduce higher levels of carbs/fat you will feel like crap for a while until your body gets used to it again. A lot of the enzymes responsible for helping to digest wheat get down-regulated if you don't eat it for an extended period, so then if you suddenly eat it you will be very sensitive to it for a while. The same applies to dairy, vegans who re-introduce animal products and more. It's commonly suggested by paleo folks to do an 'elimination diet' but they won't mention the above factoid. Not to mention the placebo effect, if you think wheat is bad, so you eliminate it for a month, then when you go to eat it again, you're EXPECTING a negative reaction, so you're more likely to get it, and attribute any reactions you get to the wheat. So you may go gluten and dairy free for a month, eat pizza, then feel horrible and declare the gluten to be the problem, when maybe it was the cheese?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by jimhensen View Post
              I will respond to this with a quote I read on another forum, that is EXTREMELY relevant.
              That explains the trouble with *digestion discomfort*(I've re-introduced meat, and carbs at two different points in my life-I've experienced it.). It does not explain other effects, such as blood in stools, diarrhea/constipation, sinus issues, malaise, muscle pain, joint pain, depression etc. The placebo effect does not explain the common experience of having the symptom first, then backtracking to find gluten contamination that was not known when the symptoms manifested.
              Lifting Journal

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Apex Predator View Post
                That explains the trouble with *digestion discomfort*(I've re-introduced meat, and carbs at two different points in my life-I've experienced it.). It does not explain other effects, such as blood in stools, diarrhea/constipation, sinus issues, malaise, muscle pain, joint pain, depression etc. The placebo effect does not explain the common experience of having the symptom first, then backtracking to find gluten contamination that was not known when the symptoms manifested.
                Yeah well if I pooped blood after eating grains I would stop eating them too. I just don't think that your complaints are common. But I do think other than blood in the stool all of those could be at least partially due to the placebo effect.

                Comment


                • Looks like you [jim] never bothered to read any of the studies that it is not just celiacs and those with sensitivities that gluten affects....why am I not surprised.

                  And you still have not given a good reason why we should should eat tasteless, nutritionally deficient high GI glues/food ?
                  Last edited by Dirlot; 07-03-2012, 09:34 AM.
                  Eating primal is not a diet, it is a way of life.
                  PS
                  Don't forget to play!

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by some asshole
                    Actually [eliminating wheat for a period of time] will show you nothing. Ditto if you eat low carb/fat for a month then re-introduce higher levels of carbs/fat you will feel like crap for a while until your body gets used to it again. A lot of the enzymes responsible for helping to digest wheat get down-regulated if you don't eat it for an extended period, so then if you suddenly eat it you will be very sensitive to it for a while. The same applies to dairy, vegans who re-introduce animal products and more. It's commonly suggested by paleo folks to do an 'elimination diet' but they won't mention the above factoid. Not to mention the placebo effect, if you think wheat is bad, so you eliminate it for a month, then when you go to eat it again, you're EXPECTING a negative reaction, so you're more likely to get it, and attribute any reactions you get to the wheat. So you may go gluten and dairy free for a month, eat pizza, then feel horrible and declare the gluten to be the problem, when maybe it was the cheese?
                    Down-regulation of enzymes? Placebo effect, eh? Perhaps you're right, gluten doesn't hurt people...

                    "GS patients are defined as those patients in which CD, wheat allergy and other clinically overlapping diseases (type 1 diabetes, inflammatory bowel diseases and Helicobacter pylori infection) have been ruled out and whose symptoms were triggered by gluten exposure and alleviated by gluten withdrawal. All enrolled patients underwent a gluten challenge carried out for approximately 4 months under clinical supervision. At the end of the challenge, patients underwent CD serology screening, Human Leukocyte Antigen (HLA) DQ2/DQ8 typing and an upper endoscopy with duodenal biopsies. Once endoscopies were performed, patients were placed back on a gluten-free diet and their symptoms monitored over time. GS were considered those patients with negative autoantibody serology (endomysium antibodies-immunoglobulin A (EMA-IgA) and tTG-IgA), normal mucosa (Marsh stage 0) or increased intraepithelial lymphocytes (Marsh stage 1) and improvement of symptoms within days of the implementation of the diet."

                    BMC Medicine | Full text | Divergence of gut permeability and mucosal immune gene expression in two gluten-associated conditions: celiac disease and gluten sensitivity

                    Again, the only point to argue here is how many people are hurt by wheat, which no one really knows. It's a pretty big waste of money to have everyone in the country tested just because it's good to know, so if people find they feel better without it--and get healthier--who the fuck cares? It's not that tasty, either. Not in its "healthy" form.

                    And if you're really curious to test the down-regulation of enzymes theory (the whole grain flu?), ask KathyH. She reintroduced wheat with no ill effect. I wonder if she had an adjustment period.
                    Last edited by Timthetaco; 07-03-2012, 07:42 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Here's the thing, as my gastroenterologist put it, Gluten Sensitivity is a "Medical Research" term. From a Medical Treatment standpoint, you are either Celiac, or your aren't Celiac. If you're Celiac, the only question is, "to what degree are you sensitive?". That said, if you test negative for Celiac but have gastrointestinal issues, many, many specialists are getting to the point of recommending patients eliminate gluten to see if symptoms improve.

                      This recommendation isn't based on some huge study. Rather, it's usually based on their own experience treating patients and seeing results through the span of many, many years.

                      Grains and Carbohydrates are being used interchangeably, and they aren't interchangeable. There are too many pot smoking, obese people in the world thinking that the only way to get carbs is to consume some form of wheat an/or unbleached white flour concoction.

                      The point in my pseudo-rant several pages back (I actually wasn't emotional at all) was that a study to properly and definitively link conditions like "Celiac" or "Gluten Sensitive" to the consumption of Wheat, Rye and Barley, is a study that has to be done generationally. It would be a HUGE undertaking spanning several decades with thousands of participants. A lot of the theory behind it all is that damaged gut flora is passed down from mom and dad to offspring, who are born with issues (or close to it) and thus develop Celiac at a very young age.

                      The problem with this discussion is that many of us with gluten issues, myself included, have just as many if not more symptoms that aren't gastrointestinal than ones that are. I exhibited symptoms that I never knew were related to the "brain in our guts" like severe ADHD, dehydration, lethargy, depression and joint pain. The only gastrointestinal issues I had were random stomach pains and diarrhea several times a day.

                      All of those issues are clearing up and there's probably only a fraction of Celiac's that share the exact same symptoms as me. My gastroenterologist even has one patient that he says is Italian (grew up there and has family there) that exhibits zero symptoms but a blood test came back positive after he had a myriad of tests done over a separate issue including a damaged gut.

                      So how many people like that are floating around? Maybe not many, maybe a lot. But one thing is for sure, unless everyone got screened for the sake of screening, many people that have gluten issues may never even know it. The range of symptoms and varying degrees of severity is one of the reasons why more and more countries in Europe are screening kids for Celiac in schools now. My point, if I have one, is that studies are interesting, and studies can be largely pointless. For every study that says eating eggs is good for you, there's one that says eating eggs is bad for you. These random, small time studies can be food for thought and give reason to investigate a concept farther, but none of them are particularly definitive. Sometimes the anecdotal can be more affective than the empirical. Ask anyone with gluten issues if they'd go back on it if they were told by their doctor's that they didn't have a problem consuming it and almost all of us will tell you HELL NO!
                      Last edited by Catharsis; 07-03-2012, 08:43 AM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Catharsis View Post
                        There are too many pot smoking, obese people in the world thinking that the only way to get carbs is to consume some form of wheat an/or unbleached white flour concoction.

                        What does pot smoking have to do with it?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by jimhensen View Post
                          What does pot smoking have to do with it?
                          You tell us....something is driving your obsession to eat and your obsession to make us eat, tasteless, nutritionally void, high GI glue.
                          Eating primal is not a diet, it is a way of life.
                          PS
                          Don't forget to play!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Dirlot View Post
                            You tell us....something is driving your obsession to eat and your obsession to make us eat, tasteless, nutritionally void, high GI glue.
                            Meh, I would pass a drug test right now. I haven't even drank a beer since I started eating healthier a little less than a month ago. I can't even smoke weed anymore to be honest. I get too paranoid.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by jimhensen View Post
                              Meh, I would pass a drug test right now. I haven't even drank a beer since I started eating healthier a little less than a month ago. I can't even smoke weed anymore to be honest. I get too paranoid.
                              And lets not draw any conclusions based on if someone use to smoke a little bud now and then....

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                                And lets not draw any conclusions based on if someone use to smoke a little bud now and then....
                                I used to smoke a lot more than a little.

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