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Why does Danny Roddy recommend sugar to reduce stress/estrogen?

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  • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post

    Have you ever tried putting your dad on a diet of beef, watermelon, cantaloupe and oranges for a few weeks? Ray Peat doesn't recommend starch due to the way it instantizes in the body. He recommends fruit sugar, which has a much lower GI response. There's a difference. I doubt you've tried the meat and fruit diet and only the ketogenic diet.
    I am slowly finding that this is the diet I actually feel best on. Meat with added fat and fruit.

    Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    Absence of data is not proof, it's ignorance.
    I would add to that the quote from Steven Hawking "“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.” This is a crime we are frequently guilty of around here.
    Using low lectin/nightshade free primal to control autoimmune arthritis. (And lost 50 lbs along the way )

    http://www.krispin.com/lectin.html

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    • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
      The context is that you're acting like an emotional wreck. Context, context, context. Kind of like the context of sugar.

      Have you ever tried putting your dad on a diet of beef, watermelon, cantaloupe and oranges for a few weeks? Ray Peat doesn't recommend starch due to the way it instantizes in the body. He recommends fruit sugar, which has a much lower GI response. There's a difference. I doubt you've tried the meat and fruit diet and only the ketogenic diet. Absence of data is not proof, it's ignorance.
      Oh, grow up... You are too young to understand this anyway. Just kidding, thanks for getting this discussion back on track, I found it very interesting, as I did reading Danny's blog (The Danny Roddy Weblog - Nutrition For Sex, Hair & Health).

      Back when I was a big, fat trainwreck and decided that low-fat, whole grains wasn't working, I ate nothing but fruit, cheese, and sausage for a couple weeks and the pounds started melting off. That lead me to paleo and MDA and the rest is history. We can't get trapped in our own dogma just for dogma's sake--there are other ways to getting healthy.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
        The context is that you're acting like an emotional wreck. Context, context, context. Kind of like the context of sugar.

        Have you ever tried putting your dad on a diet of beef, watermelon, cantaloupe and oranges for a few weeks? Ray Peat doesn't recommend starch due to the way it instantizes in the body. He recommends fruit sugar, which has a much lower GI response. There's a difference. I doubt you've tried the meat and fruit diet and only the ketogenic diet. Absence of data is not proof, it's ignorance.
        Right. Just because I have an opinion different from yours, I must be an emotional wreck. WTF? You owe me an apology m'dear. That was just flat out rude.

        You don't know what my Dad eats. It is not ketogenic and it does include tubers and fruits, quite a lot of fruit, just not chugging down straight fruit juice and table sugar. That's not at all extreme.
        Last edited by Paleobird; 07-06-2012, 05:38 PM.

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        • I started losing hair on low carb and tried various supplements to fix it. The reason I just didn't increase carbs was because Eades assured me it was only tellegon effluvium and it would stop and grow back very shortly. I kept using useless supplements all these low carbers were recommending until I came across the revolutionary idea of increasing my carb intake. I can still eat relatively low carb, providing I have a high carb day every 2 or 3 days all is fine. I remembered hearing dannys podcast on the LLVLC carb and was really surprised he didn't even mention that low carb can be a problem. I thought "wow this guy seems a bit off base". I suppose it would of been a pretty awkward going on a low-carb podcast and telling people low-carb could be the reason they're losing hair. lol
          Last edited by Forgotmylastusername; 07-06-2012, 06:07 PM.

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          • You have to decide what you believe. Is a ramped up metabolism worth a damn? I don't think so. I see no reason to raise my temperature or my heart rate. Actually quite to the contrary. Seems to me there is evidence that lowering these things are part of longevity, and most athletes have quite low heart rates. Not that I would work for that extreme either. Eat some fruit if you like, but don't convince yourself that what was it?...."a cup of sugar, a throw back soda, orange juice, and gummy bears" all in a day in the name of "increasing thyroid" is actually healthy. PUFA is bad? Meh, maybe at extremes but not at levels you would find eating Primal/Paleo. Seems to me that three things pop up in epidemiological studies fairly consistently in congruence with bad health....sugar, wheat, and bad fats (vegetable/soy oils).

            The other part I disagree with is supposing that low carb is somehow a "stressor". Just because certain hormones have earned the name "stress hormone" does not mean that their presence in every situation is a stress. Sometimes it is just how things work. As to the stress of low carb....well this is an oldie but goodie Why do people consider ketosis "stressful" to the body? - PaleoHacks.com

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            • Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
              You have to decide what you believe. Is a ramped up metabolism worth a damn? I don't think so. I see no reason to raise my temperature or my heart rate. Actually quite to the contrary. Seems to me there is evidence that lowering these things are part of longevity, and most athletes have quite low heart rates. Not that I would work for that extreme either.
              @Neckhammer,

              Consider the metabolism of a healthy young child; energy for days, high pulse, beaming with heat, vascular and pink.

              Their regenerative abilities are the defining feature of youth.

              Do you honestly believe that slowing down this youthful metabolism is a good thing?

              How many healthy athletes do you know with low pulse rates? I don't know any.

              Ask the women if they menstruate. Ask the men to remember the last time they've had a spontaneous erection.
              Last edited by dannyroddy; 07-06-2012, 07:09 PM.
              www.dannyroddy.com

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              • Originally posted by dannyroddy View Post
                @Neckhammer,

                Consider the metabolism of a healthy young child; energy for days, high pulse, beaming with heat, vascular and pink.

                Their regenerative abilities are the defining feature of youth.

                Do you honestly believe that slowing down this youthful metabolism is a good thing?

                How many healthy athletes do you know with low pulse rates? I don't know any.

                Ask the women if they menstruate. Ask the men to remember the last time they've had a spontaneous erection.
                Most of the healthy athletes that I know have a very low pulse rate. The sicker I am the higher my heart rate goes.

                Theoretically one could argue that all that metabolic activity is what makes those vibrant children grow old and less vibrant
                Using low lectin/nightshade free primal to control autoimmune arthritis. (And lost 50 lbs along the way )

                http://www.krispin.com/lectin.html

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                • I'm gonna go ahead and guess there are a lot of primal families who limit their childrens sugar consumption, but have the very same healthy attributes you describe.

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                  • Originally posted by jammies View Post
                    The sicker I am the higher my heart rate goes.
                    I addressed this a few posts back. Search for adrenaline.

                    Originally posted by jammies View Post
                    Theoretically one could argue that all that metabolic activity is what makes those vibrant children grow old and less vibrant
                    No one would make this argument.
                    www.dannyroddy.com

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                    • Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                      I'm gonna go ahead and guess there are a lot of primal families who limit their childrens sugar consumption, but have the very same healthy attributes you describe.
                      You're addressing an argument I never made.

                      A healthy child with a very high metabolic rate can get away with a very large amount of anti-thyroid foods, even a substantial amount of PUFA.

                      Damage to the mitochondria and the slowing of the metabolic rate is a life long process as saturated fats in the cell are displaced with unsaturated fats.
                      www.dannyroddy.com

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                      • Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                        I'll check out the thread. One thing that jumped out at me is the iodine. While it is no doubt effective in helping the thyroid to function I've read quite a bit indicating caution should be used. Particularly in cases when hypo is caused by hashimotos (the majority of cases by far) as it could be quite hazardous. I'm getting a bit more into this subject as of late, so I'll be reading up some more.
                        Hey Neckhammer, I find the Iodine thread to be a little over the top, shall we say. However, way before that thread even turned up, I was taking iodine. I've been taking it ever since I started low carb. I've taken as much as 50mg a day but now I just take 12.5 mg of Iodoral, which is half KI and half I.

                        I am moderate to low carb and I lean more toward eating a lot of meat rather than a lot of starch or vegetables. I don't eat much fruit but once in a while I do, especially dates. I have always tested low on my thyroid but never low enough for treatment. I absolutely believe that eating low and moderate carb primal has completely cured me of any tendency toward low thyroid or a slow metabolism. I have a normal appetite now. I can eat huge meals and if it was too much, I just don't eat at the next meal time. I never gain any weight. I'm not super willowy thin, but I'm strong and I'm not freezing all the time or sluggish or any of the other symptoms mentioned. I burn up all night long most of the time. I have LOTS of energy.

                        Did the iodine help? Probably. I don't really know. But it certainly did not hurt me one bit. Neither has low carb or low-ish carbs. I don't have to tell a bunch of bullshit stories about macro-nutrients to make myself feel better about my choices, either. The basic Primal Blueprint, carb-curve, exercise program and all, has worked beyond my wildest dreams.
                        Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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                        • I recently found out that sucrose is not just white table sugar from the sugarcane plant. Sucrose is in many foods. And it's not bleached.

                          Josh Rubin (a peat-a-tarian) says that, from his research, he found that fructose is the primary source of fuel for a developing embryo, so how can it be bad for us? I find that very interesting. If this is true, we should not be ignoring it.

                          He talks about how Lustig and Mercola say that sucrose causes diabetes and other diseases but the research is on "ding dings, dong dongs, pop-tarts, and twinkies", and really they should be looking at the tons of other ingredients in those foods like the PUFA oils and dyes, and colorings. Talk about bad research, I think he's right, if they are really basing their conclusions from that research then that is ridiculous.

                          He also says that gluconeogenesis is the bodies catabolic adaptation response to having low glycogen stored in the liver.

                          Did you know that too much protein gives you an insulin response too?

                          Peat says that the potassium in OJ stops the insulin response. Too much muscle meats can be inflammatory because of tryptophan and also they are high in iron so drink some tea or coffee with meats to inhibit iron absorption.

                          After a lifetime of substantial PUFA doses almost daily, and wheat daily, it will take a lot of effort to get it out of the tissue.

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                          • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                            - BUT -

                            My question is, if this is all true, HOW DO YOU LOSE BODY FAT ON RAY PEAT'S DIET? It seems like the diet is engineered to keep you from using your stored fat as fuel. That's all well and good if you're highly active and very lean, but the overwhelming majority of us aren't. If I wanted to adopt a Ray Peat-style diet, how can I safely burn stored fat as fuel?
                            Good question, i would like to know the answer to this.

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                            • Originally posted by dannyroddy View Post
                              I recommend sugar (fruit) and 80-100 g of protein per day for lowering estrogen because:

                              - The liver deactivates 100% of the estrogen in the body and does so when it is properly "energized" with carbohydrate (glycogen). Low glycogen levels decrease thyroid performance (the liver converts a large amount of T4>T3) and decreases the ability of the liver to remove estrogen.

                              - A sugar based metabolism decreases the release of fat from tissue (adrenaline and several other hormones release fat as a predominant fuel when we're stressed). Breakdown products from these fats (prostaglandins) activate aromatase (creates new estrogen)

                              - An ample amount of carbohydrate in the diet restrains the release of adaptive "stress" hormones, predominantly cortisol, which also activates aromatase.

                              -Danny
                              Danny, are you recommending that the bulk of the carbs come from fruit sugar?

                              The bulk of my carbs come from potatoes and white rice, the rest comes from vegetables, fruit (moderation), dairy, and plain sugar (in my coffee)

                              My question is, do we need to consume a copius amount of fruit esp. fruit juices to replenish our livers glycogen stores? My understanding is that the carbs from potatoes or white rice would have the same effect, but without comprimising the liver.

                              It is my understanding that consuming TOO much fructose in the diet esp. in concentrated fruit juice form, and to some extent from TOO much fruit in general, places too much stress on the liver e.g. fatty liver, high triglyceride levels.

                              Fructose goes straight to the liver bypassing all other digestive processes that other sugars go thru. I dont believe this is too much of a problem with a VERY active person, but i believe one needs to be carefull about how much fructose they are storing in their liver.

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                              • Originally posted by sandokan2112 View Post
                                Danny, are you recommending that the bulk of the carbs come from fruit sugar?

                                The bulk of my carbs come from potatoes and white rice, the rest comes from vegetables, fruit (moderation), dairy, and plain sugar (in my coffee)

                                My question is, do we need to consume a copius amount of fruit esp. fruit juices to replenish our livers glycogen stores? My understanding is that the carbs from potatoes or white rice would have the same effect, but without comprimising the liver.

                                It is my understanding that consuming TOO much fructose in the diet esp. in concentrated fruit juice form, and to some extent from TOO much fruit in general, places too much stress on the liver e.g. fatty liver, high triglyceride levels.

                                Fructose goes straight to the liver bypassing all other digestive processes that other sugars go thru. I dont believe this is too much of a problem with a VERY active person, but i believe one needs to be carefull about how much fructose they are storing in their liver.
                                I never bought into the whole fructose-fear thing. Yes, it's probably not good when it's isolated refined sugar, but I don't see how starch is healthier than fruit. If anything, fruit is a lot easier on the body because it doesn't cause the massive insulin and blood sugar surge that starch does. Fruit is the only thing in nature that WANTS you to eat it - that's how it reproduces. You eat the fruit, walk somewhere else and poop out the seeds. If nothing ate it, the species would die out. IMO, that would make it one of the safest sources of calories in nature,

                                Just my opinion. I see no reason to avoid REAL fruit sugar. I'm still not going to use white sugar, though. There is essentially ZERO nutrition.

                                Substantial differences in total antioxidant content of different sweeteners were found. Refined sugar, corn syrup, and agave nectar contained minimal antioxidant activity (<0.01 mmol FRAP/100 g); raw cane sugar had a higher FRAP (0.1 mmol/100 g). Dark and blackstrap molasses had the highest FRAP (4.6 to 4.9 mmol/100 g), while maple syrup, brown sugar, and honey showed intermediate antioxidant capacity (0.2 to 0.7 mmol FRAP/100 g). Based on an average intake of 130 g/day refined sugars and the antioxidant activity measured in typical diets, substituting alternative sweeteners could increase antioxidant intake an average of 2.6 mmol/day, similar to the amount found in a serving of berries or nuts.

                                Total antioxidant content of alternatives to... [J Am Diet Assoc. 2009] - PubMed - NCBI
                                I'm always consistently shocked by the amount of nutrition in blackstrap molasses, though.



                                If it's okay to eat butter by the slice, is it okay to eat molasses by the spoonful? According to Fitday, it's more bang for your buck. And I believe that's regular molasses, not blackstrap. Blackstrap is even more nutrient-dense!
                                Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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