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  • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    Ketogenic diets cause physiological insulin resistance. Chris Kresser explains it briefly here:
    Mr. Taco - I hope you read this and aren't just doing 'hit and run' replies...

    OK, Back in my SAD days, big, ol' fat me was pre-diabetic. I went whole hog PB. low carb, and lost a ton of weight. My FBG on SAD was 120. On LC PB, it got down to about 90 within a few months, but crept up to 110 over two years.

    Doing some self-experimentation with potatoes and a blood glucose monitor, I found my FBG would be highest very early in the morning, then slowly lower itself until I ate at 1130am.

    So at 6am, it would be 110, 1130am 90. I'd eat a LC lunch and my BG would be around 130 right after eating, lowering to 90 within an hour.

    Eating 1 pound of white potato on an empty stomach would result in a BG spike up to 180, then back down to 90 within 2-3 hours, sometimes I'd even hit hypoglycemic territory in the 60's before stabilizing in 90's. That was while eating LC normally.

    So, since Jan 1st, I have been eating approx 1 pound of starch a day (potatoes, sweet potatoes, plantains, and/or rice).

    I hadn't checked my FBG for a while, but after 4 weeks of adding starch, I checked. FBG was 120!

    Specifically, 6am - 120; 8am - 110, 10am - 105, 12am - 100.

    I ate a lunch consisting of 1/2 pound of potato, sour cream, 1/2 pound of salmon, and some green veggies: BG spiked to 160, then dropped over 2 hours to 100 and was 95 at 3 hours.

    Here's my take on all this:

    I was insulin resistant to start from my SAD days, LC helped me to lose weight, but never addressed the underlying issue of insulin resistance. I'm hoping this will self-correct as an FBG of 120 is way too high.

    What's your take?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by otzi View Post
      OK, Back in my SAD days, big, ol' fat me was pre-diabetic. I went whole hog PB. low carb, and lost a ton of weight. My FBG on SAD was 120. On LC PB, it got down to about 90 within a few months, but crept up to 110 over two years.

      Doing some self-experimentation with potatoes and a blood glucose monitor, I found my FBG would be highest very early in the morning, then slowly lower itself until I ate at 1130am.

      So at 6am, it would be 110, 1130am 90. I'd eat a LC lunch and my BG would be around 130 right after eating, lowering to 90 within an hour.
      This is fairly consistent with the "carb backloading" model found pretty consistently throughout the body building community. Typically, insulin sensitivity increases during the evening and carbohydrate is best avoided in the morning and consumed at your final meal of the day closest to bedtime (it also helps you sleep). While your numbers are very high for fasting blood sugar, the model seems about right.

      Originally posted by otzi View Post
      Eating 1 pound of white potato on an empty stomach would result in a BG spike up to 180, then back down to 90 within 2-3 hours, sometimes I'd even hit hypoglycemic territory in the 60's before stabilizing in 90's. That was while eating LC normally.
      A spike to 180 is very high - I believe blood glucose levels become toxic when above 140 for too long - but this is consistent with someone with BG control issues. At least it's coming down to fasting levels within 2-3 hours...that is a positive sign. I don't know what eating solely potatoes would do to you - I never consume just starch, it's always mixed with a protein or vegetables. Would eating a big pile of solely potatoes with no added fat, protein or fiber do the same to me? Maybe I should try it. I have a BG meter.

      Originally posted by otzi View Post
      So, since Jan 1st, I have been eating approx 1 pound of starch a day (potatoes, sweet potatoes, plantains, and/or rice).

      I hadn't checked my FBG for a while, but after 4 weeks of adding starch, I checked. FBG was 120!

      Specifically, 6am - 120; 8am - 110, 10am - 105, 12am - 100.

      I ate a lunch consisting of 1/2 pound of potato, sour cream, 1/2 pound of salmon, and some green veggies: BG spiked to 160, then dropped over 2 hours to 100 and was 95 at 3 hours.

      Here's my take on all this:

      I was insulin resistant to start from my SAD days, LC helped me to lose weight, but never addressed the underlying issue of insulin resistance. I'm hoping this will self-correct as an FBG of 120 is way too high.

      What's your take?
      I agree you were insulin resistant from the start.

      I agree that low carbohydrate diets simply avoid the problem and do not address the problem in most cases.

      120 is very high. I would like to see you at the 75-83 range. That is the range I consider perfect. I have not eaten anything since 10:00pm last night and drank 4-5 glasses of red wine last night, and I just pricked my finger and revealed a FBG of 71. I typically get the shaky hypoglycemic feeling around a BG of 65, which tends to only happen if I go 16+ hours without food and just eat a lean protein, such as plain 0% Greek yogurt. I've done that before and it made me shaky when beforehand I felt fine. My BG nosedived from the glucagon. I feel fine right now at 71, but not my best from the damn wine. I'm also very hungry.

      I'm not sure if I agree with your methodology. I think you're in a better place than when you started in terms of health. I also think you're doing the right thing by adding carbohydrate back to correct insulin sensitivity. However, I think you're too overzealous. I'd make the following changes:

      1.) I think you're adding too much carbohydrate. Don't go from none to a pound a day. Try half a pound. Yes, a pound is not much - I eat 2-3 lbs in a sitting after a simple workout - but baby steps are key, here.

      2.) I think you're making poor choices in carbohydrate. White potatoes are one of the highest GI whole food carb sources known to man. White rice is almost as high GI as a potato, but with none of the nutrition content. Plantains are one of the most carb-dense whole foods on Earth. Maybe slow your role a bit. Do half a pound of sweet potatoes instead as they have a lower GI and a little bit of fructose. Do some moderate GI fruit - apples, oranges, mangoes. I think a banana is a good choice here. The fructose content may help you because it may get your liver used to processing it again. Maybe you're focusing too much on starch and not enough on sugar.

      3.) Be active, and center your carbohydrate consumption around activity. Insulin sensitivity is highest when following a heavy weight training session. Stay low carb throughout the day, and push your carbohydrate immediately after workout. This way, you can still add carbs to your routine and improve glucose tolerance, but you're timing them when your (not fully healed) body will best tolerate them.

      4.) It's only been a month. You can't expect to fix decades of poor decisions in a month. I don't mean to be harsh, but it's reality.

      I think you're too gung-ho, and your blood glucose numbers are showing you're not quite at that point yet. Pick lower GI carbohydrate sources, time them better (immediately after a workout or later in the evening) and drop your consumption a bit. It may help you. And of course - USE THAT BLOOD GLUCOSE METER! That's the best way to find out if it's working for you.
      Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

      Comment


      • Choco, it doesn't take much to "prevent" this physiological insulin resistance if it even is a problem. You don't even technically need "daily" doses of carbs (and this would be mostly starch since the majority of sugar is delt with in the liver) to prevent it. A refeed once every week or two should be enough to keep your body in check and prevent this from happening.

        If it isn't, then I think you have issues that go beyond the mere physiological that you should probably be addressing and simply adding "more carbs" likely isn't going to do much for you in that case. I'm not saying daily carbs are bad for you, just that it doesn't take very much to prevent the physiological insulin resistance.
        "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

        Comment


        • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
          I think you're too gung-ho, and your blood glucose numbers are showing you're not quite at that point yet. Pick lower GI carbohydrate sources, time them better (immediately after a workout or later in the evening) and drop your consumption a bit. It may help you. And of course - USE THAT BLOOD GLUCOSE METER! That's the best way to find out if it's working for you.
          Dude! Awesome advice, glad I caught you in a writing mood. I have been scaling back the potatoes and hardly ever eat rice, maybe 1X week. I have been eating plantains, greenish bananas, and sweet potatoes more. I will try your idea of eating the starch mainly in evening. I have been eating 2-3 clementines and 1-2 bananas a day.

          I usually IF til noon, exercise a little in the morning and heavy in the afternoons 3-4X/week. Since adding in the starch, I have nearly doubled my capacity for pullups from 60 to 100 in a 6 set window. Also seeing similar progress with weighted squats and pushups.

          In one month of this, I have gained 5 pounds, but it seems to just be added muscle and maybe some extra intestinal matter. Would be nice to get glucose under control. Having insulin sensitivity issues can cause many other set-backs besides high FBG.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Drumroll View Post
            Choco, it doesn't take much to "prevent" this physiological insulin resistance if it even is a problem. You don't even technically need "daily" doses of carbs (and this would be mostly starch since the majority of sugar is delt with in the liver) to prevent it. A refeed once every week or two should be enough to keep your body in check and prevent this from happening.
            Sure, it doesn't take much. I wish the typical LC's would understand that. No one is telling them to cut fat out of their diet and survive on pounds of potatoes. Just eat real food. Have a sweet potato with your steak, grab a piece of fruit as a snack if you're hungry instead of pounding handfuls of nuts or drinking butter-blended coffees at 500 calories a pop. Embrace the middle ground instead of dogma.

            Originally posted by Drumroll View Post
            If it isn't, then I think you have issues that go beyond the mere physiological that you should probably be addressing and simply adding "more carbs" likely isn't going to do much for you in that case. I'm not saying daily carbs are bad for you, just that it doesn't take very much to prevent the physiological insulin resistance.
            My issue is with the methodology of how people determine they "don't tolerate carbs." People go off VLC/LC diets that have made them physiologically insulin resistant, decide to pound 3-4 potatoes in a sitting, have a BG crash from this insulin resistance, then determine they don't tolerate carbohydrate well. It's an insane model. You have to do these things slowly and evenly over long periods of time, not just shock your body and then complain when you feel ill.
            Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Drumroll View Post
              Choco, it doesn't take much to "prevent" this physiological insulin resistance if it even is a problem. You don't even technically need "daily" doses of carbs (and this would be mostly starch since the majority of sugar is delt with in the liver) to prevent it. A refeed once every week or two should be enough to keep your body in check and prevent this from happening.

              If it isn't, then I think you have issues that go beyond the mere physiological that you should probably be addressing and simply adding "more carbs" likely isn't going to do much for you in that case. I'm not saying daily carbs are bad for you, just that it doesn't take very much to prevent the physiological insulin resistance.
              I knew I should have been doing that, but it is hard! When I'd try, I'd bloat up and for an ex-obese person, any weight gain is met with horror. It's so easy to completely eliminate starch from your diet, it's usually the first thing to go behind sugar, flour and oil.

              I'm on a new journey now to find a 'no-brainer' diet that includes an ample amount of starch, fat, meat, fruit and veggies every day. All I'm looking for now is to just maintain my current weight by eating good food, get my thyroid and glucose operating normally, and see where I'm at in a year with minimal tweaks.

              Wasn't the downfall of the Atkin's Diet the fact that no one could add back in the carbs like Atkin's recommended?

              Comment


              • Personally, I love my high fat diet. But I do end up getting a good refeed about every two weeks or so. Usually a meal with some white rice (sushi anyone?) or perhaps some sweet potatoes or what have you. I don't eat out very often, but when I do there is usually a refeed involved in that.

                I usually say you can eat VLC most of the time if that's your preference and never develop physiological insulin resistance as long as you make sure to do this every once in a while to "remind" your body what to do with insulin.
                "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

                Comment


                • Originally posted by otzi View Post
                  Dude! Awesome advice, glad I caught you in a writing mood. I have been scaling back the potatoes and hardly ever eat rice, maybe 1X week. I have been eating plantains, greenish bananas, and sweet potatoes more. I will try your idea of eating the starch mainly in evening. I have been eating 2-3 clementines and 1-2 bananas a day.

                  I usually IF til noon, exercise a little in the morning and heavy in the afternoons 3-4X/week. Since adding in the starch, I have nearly doubled my capacity for pullups from 60 to 100 in a 6 set window. Also seeing similar progress with weighted squats and pushups.

                  In one month of this, I have gained 5 pounds, but it seems to just be added muscle and maybe some extra intestinal matter. Would be nice to get glucose under control. Having insulin sensitivity issues can cause many other set-backs besides high FBG.
                  Try lumping your carbs strictly after workouts. If you don't lift heavy that day, simply eat low carbohydrate. Cut the starch, maybe limit yourself to a piece or two of fruit solely in the evening if you feel the need for something sweet.

                  And most of all, listen to yourself. I think you're eating carbs just for the sake of carbs. I'm 26 and lift heavy regularly, but even I don't really crave any starch unless it's after a workout. 80% of my meals are naturally low carb because I sit around all day at work. I find if I'm sedentary, I just want meat, dairy, vegetables and occasional fruit. You may find yourself truly not wanting all this starch if you really listen to yourself.

                  Of course, you and I are different and naturally have different cravings, but try and pay more attention to what your body wants. It's usually good at telling you when it wants fat or sugar. It's just a pain translating them. If you want ice cream, what does it mean? Fat, sugar or protein? It's a good source of all three. I still haven't figured that one out, but I did learn that craving pasta = potatoes!
                  Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                  Comment


                  • @Choco- Thanks for your reply!

                    I was so frustrated while VLC and being in ketosis. I could tell I had major insulin resistance esp. for eating around 20-50g(max) carbs a day and using the same if not more insulin than when eating up to 150g. My body was very stressed. I didn't understand that even when I lowered my protein why I had to give extra bolus insulin to take care of blood sugar spikes that seemed to come out of no where!

                    I seem to do best eating equal (give or take) percentages of fat/protein/carbs. Just my n=1

                    Comment


                    • This needs proof please

                      "A decrease in sugar utilization (or just not eating any) decreases carbon dioxide levels, which starves the mitochondria of oxygen. The mitochondria need to use oxygen vigorously during stress to produce hormones and energy."

                      Danny please explain/reference where you get this fundamental principle from? Especially the first half. Thanks

                      Comment


                      • You do realize this thread has been dead over a year and Danny Roddy isn't going to personally reply?
                        F 28/5'4/100 lbs

                        "I'm not a psychopath, I'm a high-functioning sociopath; do your research."

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Pkayley View Post
                          "A decrease in sugar utilization (or just not eating any) decreases carbon dioxide levels, which starves the mitochondria of oxygen. The mitochondria need to use oxygen vigorously during stress to produce hormones and energy."

                          Danny please explain/reference where you get this fundamental principle from? Especially the first half. Thanks
                          Any physiology book will do.

                          Sugar and fat can both go through the krebs cycle, but if you're 'using fat as fuel' you will not get the extra step of pyruvate decarboxylation, which provides a significant amount of CO2.

                          Originally posted by Chris Masterjohn
                          "Burning fat also produces less CO2 than burning carbohydrate because fats are poor in oxygen compared to carbs." - Dr. Chris Masterjohn
                          Originally posted by Chris Masterjohn
                          "While dietary fat is clearly important, there may be a role for dietary carbohydrate as well. Once vitamins A and D stimulate the production of vitamin K-dependent proteins, vitamin K activates those proteins by adding carbon dioxide to them. Once added to a protein, carbon dioxide carries a negative charge and allows the protein to interact with calcium, which carries a positive charge. The greater the supply of carbon dioxide, the better vitamin K can do its job.25 Carbohydrates are rich in carbon and oxygen, and when we break them down for energy we release these elements in our breath as carbon dioxide. Because carbohydrates are richer in oxygen, burning them generates about 30 percent more carbon dioxide per calorie than burning fat, and low-carbohydrate diets have been shown to lower blood levels of carbon dioxide (Figure 3).26 Ideally, we should study this further by determining whether dietary carbohydrate affects the amount of activated vitamin K-dependent proteins in humans." - Dr. Chris Masterjohn
                          Originally posted by Chris Masterjohn
                          "It is clearly time to move beyond viewing each vitamin in isolation. The fat-soluble vitamins not only synergize with each other, but cooperate with many other nutrients and metabolic factors such as magnesium, zinc, fat, carbohydrate, carbon dioxide and thyroid hormone.

                          This paradigm has two important implications. At the level of scientific research, a study about one vitamin can easily come to false conclusions unless it takes into account its interactions with all the others. We should reverently and humbly bow before the complexity of these interactions, realizing how little we know and recognizing that we are always learning..." -Dr. Chris Masterjohn
                          Nutritional Adjuncts to the Fat-Soluble Vitamins - Weston A Price Foundation
                          www.dannyroddy.com

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by BestBetter View Post
                            Some questions about starches vs. fructose:

                            1) Why does Ray repeatedly mention that starches are more 'harmful' and likely to lead to weight gain if fructose is stored as liver glycogen, then converted to glucose when it's used? I don't understand how or why eating fructose in the form of fruit or sucrose in the form of table sugar would have significant benefits over eating glucose in the form of starches.
                            Off the top of my head:

                            -Hepatic glycogen is a factor in satiety, fructose/glucose refills hepatic glycogen better than glucose alone.
                            -Starches increase bacterial endotoxin, fructose is absorbed rapidly from the upper end of the intestine, where yeast activity is minimal to none
                            -Fructose intensifies the oxidation of glucose and shifts the phosphorylation state of the cell favoring oxidative metabolism (i.e., glucose to carbon dioxide)
                            -Fructose restores diet-induced thermogenesis and carbon dioxide levels to near normal more than glucose alone does
                            -Fructose bypasses and activates key steps in glycolysis that are inhibited in people with poor glucose tolerance

                            Originally posted by BestBetter View Post
                            2) In Lyle McDonald's UD2, he says that ultimately it doesn't matter what type of carbohydrate you use to to a carb load, but that fructose tends to give inferior results to starches/glucose because fructose is used preferentially by the liver and is not very effecient at being used to refill muscle glycogen. What's your take on this?

                            A Primer on Dietary Carbohydrates | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald
                            I think the idea is that the harmful effects of glucose alone are neutralized when combined with fructose. Also, that fructose can restore or support efficient energy production if inhibited (i.e., glucose to carbon dioxide instead of glucose to lactic acid).
                            www.dannyroddy.com

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by PeaceCorpsCaveMan View Post
                              For Danny, I am hoping he can explain what the takeaway points for someone like me would be given I already have hair like a fox, a sex drive like a rabbit, 5-10 vanity pounds not unlike a gorilla, a predisposition to gain weight with very high carbohydrates like a pig, and a lack of faith in the long-term ability of "will power" to maintain a calorie-restricted diet like...well, let's say...Oprah.
                              After two years of zero-carbing I was ready for a new paradigm. I wasn't where I wanted to be.

                              I initially noted many benefits when I started including starches in my diet. The main thing being an increase in body temperature and the disappearance of a lot of hypo/stress symptoms I had been having.

                              This lead me to take a close look at the metabolism/thyroid and attempt to put the pieces together in a meaningful way.
                              www.dannyroddy.com

                              Comment


                              • Thanks for that explanation, Danny!

                                Just a quick update: since July, I've been experimenting with adding more fructose and sucrose to my diet and lowering fat to compensate. I was initially really nervous about this, but I think it's done me a world of good. It didn't fix all my health issues, but it did bring a noticeable improvement.

                                The increase in carbs from both starches and sugars reduced my fatigue and increased my mood, though there was still plenty of room for improvement (which made me realize just how bad it had gotten while on low carb).

                                In the past few weeks I've added a glandular supplement (it includes raw glandular extracts of thyroid, adrenals, pituitary) and niacinamide. I'm still playing around with the dosage, but from the first day I got such a huge boost in energy and mood, I really felt invincible. Plus, it gave me a big increase in body temperature so that I'm almost a normal warm-blooded person again. I'm not sure if it's due to either the glandulars or the niacinamide or if it's from both working synergistically, but I feel like a million bucks...hard to believe such a huge improvement could come from such a basic, cheap supplement.

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