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Why does Danny Roddy recommend sugar to reduce stress/estrogen?

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  • Being on low carb pretty much caused my hair to go from super thick and full of life to lifeless and thin in 2 months, no joke. Since finding Danny's weblog through another forum about hairloss, I dove straight in to Ray Peat's dietary ideas with reckless abandon. I overate like crazy(my body was massively craving fruit and sugar) and it literally took less than 2 weeks to notice the thickness returning to my hair and just a general feeling of well-being. Now I drink pretty much 3 quarts of milk and oj a day, eat several ounces of cheese, pop asprin like Dr. House, eat fruit like no tomorrow, salt nearly everything, go through pints of haagen daz and eat as much coconut oil as possible. I've had no side effects, really, besides weight gain which is to be expected since I'm eating so much. It's not a problem as I'm really tall and have been thin most of my life.

    tl;dr just extending my thanks to Danny for putting Ray Peat's work in an easily accessible format.
    Make America Great Again

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    • Originally posted by bopfer View Post
      You don't have to believe Peat. There are plenty of others promoting more fruit and starches with less fat. Denise Minger, Chris Masterjohn, and Stephan Guyenet just to name a few. Heck even Chris Kresser and Mat LaLonde are coming around. Give it another year or 2 and most of these people (and more) will be closer to Peat then to Sisson or Wolf.

      Nutrition is very complex and NO ONE has all the answers. We are all just trying to figure out what makes the most sense. I once thought Paleo/Primal was the one. But, I have evolved beyond it.
      I wasn't aware that Lalonde ate any fruit or sugar at all whatsoever. His facebook page does have a bunch of chocolate and stuff on it.

      Paul Jaminet wrote about this saying that fruit might lead to euphoria and that a higher carb ratio to fat might lead to a shorter survival but better sexual function. A risk i may be willing to take.

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      • I haven't read through this whole thread but I've noticed that I use as much and sometimes more insulin on VLC vs 70-150ish carbs. I have type 1 diabetes and use an insulin pump so I can see my daily totals.

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        • God daaaaaaaam. Made it through 58 pages of this thread. Took two days, but I did it. Am as confused as I was before.

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          • Originally posted by Rocco Hill View Post
            God daaaaaaaam. Made it through 58 pages of this thread. Took two days, but I did it. Am as confused as I was before.
            Was it really worth it? I was thinking about doing the same. Thoughts?

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            • Originally posted by Loneketo View Post
              Was it really worth it? I was thinking about doing the same. Thoughts?

              Yes it is! Apart from the childish exaggerations of alot of the posts(posters), all sides have very interesting points to make. I also really like ChocoTaco's perspective(on most things), even if people are continually battering him

              But if you're on the fence it might make you want to stay there. And it's not bad place to be sitting in the murky world of nutrition/

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              • Finally - a discussion I was looking forward to reading, except for....

                Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                Heheheheh. The guy with the caps lock key permanently stuck on his keyboard is saying I argue "emotionally". That's rich.

                .....

                You accuse me of headline skimming but admit that you stopped reading several pages back. E.g. you would have understood the Terry Walhls reference had you been reading and not skimming. And I even apologized for using the "full of it" language. Which you would know had you been paying attention.

                Exactly what makes you think I am an "emotional wreck"? I suppose it is easy to toss out a personal attack like that to avoid dealing with the actual arguments.

                Boy, when you get your rant on, you really start burning the strawmen and acting nasty. Calm down, OK?
                I was really glad to find this discussion, because I've read both Danny's blog thoroughly, as well as Mark's, and a bit of Peat. (And, a crapload of other studies and blogs about athletes, lifting, carbs, protein, etc.) I have a lot of questions about these things and I appreciate Danny coming over to participate in the discussion in a level-headed manner.

                I'm only 11 pages into what is currently a 58 page discussion and I finally have to speak up and say that what's really annoying is having to dig past the vitriol and scarcasm put out by Palobird (and a few others who are on her coattails). It's as if you're taking this personally and letting it get to you. I don't get it. It's unnecessary drama. No one is telling you how to live your life. Do what you want. If low-carb works for you, great.

                Not long ago, I too was screaming about the evils of all sugar. I was looking down my nose at my friends who eat sugar but have full heads of hair. Guess what, my average body temp is 96, I've got definite signs of hypothyroidism and issues with staying warm enough. I'm having a really hard time justifying putting carbs back into my diet, so reading some intelligent and thoughtful information is what I'm looking for, not another screaming match.

                Maybe by page 58 Paleobird gets banned from the discussion or begins to come around. Either way, I'm starting to tune out the shrill screaming.

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                • Originally posted by codered5 View Post
                  Read to your heart's content - HEALTHY DIETS AND SCIENCE: Sugar and Health

                  There are plenty more links on the right side on sugar. Enjoy!
                  Hmm... this website is questionable to me. The first link is a list of correlative factors linking the rise in x to the rise in diabetes = not science. The next two have the header, "Sugar lowers the immune system." That language demonstrates a clear lack of how an immune system functions. It doesn't rise and fall like a limbo bar.

                  Finally, the sales links at the bottom of every blog post make me feel like this person is just out to sell something.

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                  • RubyRed, Choco and I have know each other on this board for years and occasionally butt heads. Then other times we are on the same side of the argument. It's not a big deal for either of us.

                    I had totally forgotten this thread even existed until someone necroed it.

                    It really sounds like you are the one taking things personally and creating needless drama. Chill.

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                    • Originally posted by RubyRed View Post
                      my average body temp is 96, I've got definite signs of hypothyroidism and issues with staying warm enough. I'm having a really hard time justifying putting carbs back into my diet, so reading some intelligent and thoughtful information is what I'm looking for, not another screaming match.
                      I was having some similar issues from being low carb for too long. I was eating probably about 75-100g/day, but from fruit/veggies only, no starches, grains, sugars or anything like that. I had felt good eating that way for a period of time, until I slowly started feeling worse and worse, but I couldn't believe that there was a problem with my low carb paleo diet...so I stuck with it, got stricter and stricter (I was pretty strict already, so this wasn't easy). My body temp kept dropping, my fatigue became more crippling, I had terrible bouts of depression and anxiety, my hair was coming out in handfuls in the shower...the 'healthier' I ate, the sicker I got.

                      And then I heard about Ray Peat and Danny Roddy and The Perfect Health Diet (which is a higher carb version of paleo). I don't agree with everything Ray Peat says, but I think there are some gems among his articles. I started incorporating SOME Ray Peat suggestions with the Perfect Health Diet (lots more starches), and all those hypothyroid symptoms I developed as a result of switching to Primal started to improve. After about 6 months, my hair isn't falling out like crazy anymore, my body temperature has been increasing, my mood is stable, I'm happy and positive, I'm not cold anymore, and I actually have energy to take 2+ hour walks, do hot yoga everyday...basically everything that I never used to have energy to do. I also ended up losing most of the extra fat I gained by eating Primal.

                      *In addition to incorporating some Ray Peat elements, I've been using cold thermogenesis (ice baths, cold showers, going out in the cold lightly dressed), and I think it has contributed significantly to the increased body temperature I've been enjoying.

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                      • I think what Danny Roddy and Ray Peat mean by stress is a systematic, acute or chronic reduction in the abily to meet energy demands at the required rate. There a number of contexts that can lead to this state in the organism. One could interact with a substance in a way that directly impairs the "clean" energy production mechanisms like eating PUFAs or one could chronically over train, over think or over do any activity to the point where the "clean" energy production systems fail to meet demands. In this case a switch over to an "emegency" energy system would take place. The critical distinction between "clean" and "emergency" enegy production mechanisms is the byprocucts that they produce. The "clean" produces CO2 and the "emergency" produces lactic acid. CO2 is favorable to lactic acid because its concentrations are easily managad by breathing and it has positive affects at the cellular level. Lactic acid on the other hand needs to be transported to the liver where it may further have a negative affect by reducing the livers glycogen stores. And unlike CO2 its harmfull in most context at the cellular level due to its role in inflemation. If the thyroid hormones conversion by the liver to its more active form is considired, from here it can be seen that the "emergency" system at least through an indirect pathway inhibits the "clean" energy metabolism. Becuase without adequate thyroid and the proper balance of thyroid hormones, the "clean" energy system does not work. In essense, the "emergency" system is a long term stressor in and of it self. It is possible that chronic PUFA consumption, and physical, cognive and emotional over excertion has over time impaired the "clean" energy production method. Therefore your father produces greater ammounts of lactic acid instead to CO2 when consuming carbohydrates. That is why eliminating them may have reduced his lactic acid load and improved his health. But that does not mean that the underlying metabolic issue is fixed. By adopting an indefinate carbohydrate restriction he is effectively managing it. I am not a medicaly or achademically trained person and I am sure that people on both sides of the argument will find many logical inconsistencies in what I wrote but I just wanted to express my understanding of the whole issue I hope it will lead to further discussion to refine my understanding.

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                        • I put her on ignore and got through the thread a lot quicker, and in a better mood. Can't stand the sarcasm myself. I do like to read around a range of opinions, and there is lots of interesting debate here.

                          Originally posted by RubyRed View Post
                          I was really glad to find this discussion, because I've read both Danny's blog thoroughly, as well as Mark's, and a bit of Peat. (And, a crapload of other studies and blogs about athletes, lifting, carbs, protein, etc.) I have a lot of questions about these things and I appreciate Danny coming over to participate in the discussion in a level-headed manner.

                          I'm only 11 pages into what is currently a 58 page discussion and I finally have to speak up and say that what's really annoying is having to dig past the vitriol and scarcasm put out by Palobird (and a few others who are on her coattails). It's as if you're taking this personally and letting it get to you. I don't get it. It's unnecessary drama. No one is telling you how to live your life. Do what you want. If low-carb works for you, great.

                          Not long ago, I too was screaming about the evils of all sugar. I was looking down my nose at my friends who eat sugar but have full heads of hair. Guess what, my average body temp is 96, I've got definite signs of hypothyroidism and issues with staying warm enough. I'm having a really hard time justifying putting carbs back into my diet, so reading some intelligent and thoughtful information is what I'm looking for, not another screaming match.

                          Maybe by page 58 Paleobird gets banned from the discussion or begins to come around. Either way, I'm starting to tune out the shrill screaming.
                          My website: http://www.shoppinganywhere.net/

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by brookesam View Post
                            I haven't read through this whole thread but I've noticed that I use as much and sometimes more insulin on VLC vs 70-150ish carbs. I have type 1 diabetes and use an insulin pump so I can see my daily totals.
                            Likely too much protein, it requires insulin as well. High fat, moderate protein and low carb should reduce insulin needs.

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                            • Originally posted by AshleyL View Post
                              Likely too much protein, it requires insulin as well. High fat, moderate protein and low carb should reduce insulin needs.
                              Protein was much lower than my usual, I tried to keep it in the 80-95 gram range. My usual was and is around 120-130. Thanks though

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                              • Originally posted by brookesam View Post
                                Protein was much lower than my usual, I tried to keep it in the 80-95 gram range. My usual was and is around 120-130. Thanks though
                                Ketogenic diets cause physiological insulin resistance. Chris Kresser explains it briefly here:

                                One caveat here is that very low-carb diets will produce elevated fasting blood glucose levels. Why? Because low-carb diets induce insulin resistance. Restricting carbohydrates produces a natural drop in insulin levels, which in turn activates hormone sensitive lipase. Fat tissue is then broken down, and non-esterified fatty acids (a.k.a. “free fatty acids” or NEFA) are released into the bloodstream. These NEFA are taken up by the muscles, which use them as fuel. And since the muscle’s needs for fuel has been met, it decreases sensitivity to insulin. You can read more about this at Hyperlipid.

                                Why your “normal” blood sugar isn’t normal (Part 2)
                                If you want the detailed breakdown, I embedded the link to a lengthy post at Hyperlipid.

                                The short answer is regular spikes in blood sugar with healthy carbohydrate sources, especially starches, keeps you insulin sensitive. If you avoid high GI carbohydrate sources for too long, your body becomes insulin resistant just like avoiding a certain physical activity for a long period decreases your conditioning at that physical activity. Imagine going from running 5 miles every day - you'd probably be pretty darn good at it - and then take 6 entire weeks off where you did no running at all. If you started to pick it up again, you'd be moving at a much slower pace...or maybe barely even finish.

                                This is often why a lot of times people on ketogenic diets "add carbs" then feel awful. They've made themselves insulin resistant, so suddenly piling on starch shocks their body with a reaction they can no longer efficiently process. You should use more insulin on a very low carbohydrate diet - you're insulin resistant, so you need more to do the same amount of work.
                                Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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