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Why does Danny Roddy recommend sugar to reduce stress/estrogen?

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  • Originally posted by cori93437 View Post
    You are cracking me up Chaco.
    Wiki is not all that reliable. Anyone can edit it with inaccurate content.

    In cottages cow dairy was was hand skimmed. Leaving behind some of the cream because hand skimming is inefficient compared to modern separation. Not all people were making butter daily, and people would indeed use whole milk for the cottage cheese at times even from cow dairy. Why, lack of cold storage to put it very simply. Not every family could drink the whole of what Bessie gave in the morning... leave it sit, bacteria start to acidify it if left warm, cottage cheese at dinner time. Simple. Also if they kept and milked goats or sheep the milk was left whole... because you CANNOT skim goats milk without a mechanical separator... poor people don't have those BTW.
    Though not called "cottage cheese" as in our modern term this type of simple quick cheese can be traced all the way back to the homes of the people of ancient Greece...

    Here is a MUCH more accurate page about early American cottage cheese noting some of the reasons why whole milk would have been used... such as warm temperatures during the transport of whole milk.
    Details for making Cottage Cheese

    Yes... I have made enough cheese to know this stuff.
    I worked on a goat dairy growing up with an old woman who did it all by hand, she made every kind of cheese you can imagine from hard to soft, to quick cottage stuff, to yogurt. She knew the history of cheeses coming and going.
    She also made cow dairy cheese by getting milk from local guys in trade.
    Hmmmm, that seems to be the type we make at our house with our raw milk every once in a while (when it's going sour). Just leave it out overnight and whala! Magical curds. My understanding was you can hang this in a cloth and make "farmers cheese" and much of what drains out is the whey? I'm guessing you would then just cook the farmers cheese or something to get traditional cottage cheese? Or would you do that without straining it first? Meh, guess I could just check your link. Good info though .

    Comment


    • Originally posted by YogaBare View Post
      Would just like to add to this - could raw honey serve a a "supplement", or does it have to be white sugar?
      White sugar is generally recommended since it's pure sucrose. Sweeteners like honey and agave are not pure and can cause allergy issues in some. If they don't bother you, then they should be fine. But, if you are having any issues, it's best to stick with fruits and white sugar.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by bopfer View Post
        White sugar is generally recommended since it's pure sucrose. Sweeteners like honey and agave are not pure and can cause allergy issues in some. If they don't bother you, then they should be fine. But, if you are having any issues, it's best to stick with fruits and white sugar.
        What do you mean not "pure" as in they contain nutrients? Or like the honey is tainted? Raw local honey has some good things going for it seems to me.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by cori93437 View Post
          You are cracking me up Chaco.
          Wiki is not all that reliable. Anyone can edit it with inaccurate content.
          If you understand cheese making at all you understand that is is NOT possible to make curds from whey. Curds and whey are the two parts of milk that occur during separation due to various forms of acidification.

          Just TRY it.

          The phrase that you have highlighted once again says "any MILK left over after making butter". MILK, not whey. Whey is the clear watery component left after making butter and it cannot be used for making cottage cheese.
          What you do not understand about the process is that cream is skimmed from the milk, the skimmed milk is used for other things like cottage cheese, and the cream only is beaten into butter... and leaves behind some whey. Clear liquid from which you cannot make curds.

          In cottages cow dairy was was hand skimmed. Leaving behind some of the cream because hand skimming is inefficient compared to modern separation. Not all people were making butter daily, and people would indeed use whole milk for the cottage cheese at times even from cow dairy. Why, lack of cold storage to put it very simply. Not every family could drink the whole of what Bessie gave in the morning... leave it sit, bacteria start to acidify it if left warm, cottage cheese at dinner time. Simple. Also if they kept and milked goats or sheep the milk was left whole... because you CANNOT skim goats milk without a mechanical separator... poor people don't have those BTW.
          Though not called "cottage cheese" as in our modern term this type of simple quick cheese can be traced all the way back to the homes of the people of ancient Greece...

          Here is a MUCH more accurate page about early American cottage cheese noting some of the reasons why whole milk would have been used... such as warm temperatures during the transport of whole milk.
          Details for making Cottage Cheese

          Yes... I have made enough cheese to know this stuff.
          I worked on a goat dairy growing up with an old woman who did it all by hand, she made every kind of cheese you can imagine from hard to soft, to quick cottage stuff, to yogurt. She knew the history of cheeses coming and going.
          She also made cow dairy cheese by getting milk from local guys in trade.
          Again, that is not the original intent. That is an evolution. Some people may have had excess milk and used it to make fattier cottage cheese. That's not how it was discovered. It was originally a byproduct. I don't care what people turned it into eventually. That's not the point. Peat's recommendation still stands. I strongly prefer the taste of 1% cottage cheese to 4% cottage cheese and will continue to buy that variety. Sure, it's not made the traditional way anymore - they're likely using 1% milk instead of butter byproduct like in the old days, but it is much more appropriate for my needs.
          Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
            What do you mean not "pure" as in they contain nutrients? Or like the honey is tainted? Raw local honey has some good things going for it seems to me.
            Not tainted. Just some of the natural substances in them can be allergenic for many with gut issues.

            Here's a quote from Peat:

            A daily diet that includes two quarts of milk and a quart of orange juice provides enough fructose and other sugars for general resistance to stress, but larger amounts of fruit juice, honey, or other sugars can protect against increased stress, and can reverse some of the established degenerative conditions. Refined granulated sugar is extremely pure, but it lacks all of the essential nutrients, so it should be considered as a temporary therapeutic material, or as an occasional substitute when good fruit isn't available, or when available honey is allergenic.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by bopfer View Post
              Here's a quote from Peat:

              A daily diet that includes two quarts of milk and a quart of orange juice provides enough fructose and other sugars for general resistance to stress, but larger amounts of fruit juice, honey, or other sugars can protect against increased stress, and can reverse some of the established degenerative conditions. Refined granulated sugar is extremely pure, but it lacks all of the essential nutrients, so it should be considered as a temporary therapeutic material, or as an occasional substitute when good fruit isn't available, or when available honey is allergenic.
              Seems reasonable.
              "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

              In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

              - Ray Peat

              Comment


              • Originally posted by YogaBare View Post
                Seems reasonable.
                Meh, doesn't to me.....I've seen just as much "evidence" that eating a ketogenic diet is the the ultimate way to reduce stress to the system....But I did take the time to read the blog along with the comments and try to understand were they are coming from. So at least he got a bit more traffic . I'll just put this on the back burner for now. Good luck anyhow.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by YogaBare View Post
                  Seems reasonable.
                  Basically, it sounds like he's using milk and orange juice as "quick sources" of sugars. If you are a busy person, you can streamline your diet by eating steak, milk and orange juice. No prep, no muss, no fuss. However, for people that enjoy prepping their foods or have issues with satiety, they'd be better off consuming similar macros but in the forms of cottage cheese and whole fruits to get the same macros. 2 quarts of milk and a quart of orange juice sounds like a lot of sugar, but in reality that's around 150-200g of carbohydrate. That it substantially low carb versus the SAD and it fits within Mark's daily guidelines for moerately active Primals - and ALL Primals should be moderately active IMO! In reality, that is A LOT of cottage cheese and fruit to eat on a daily basis. It's simple to overeat calories drinking the stuff, but if we use our brains and eat whole food sources, we can achieve good satiety doing this.
                  Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                    Meh, doesn't to me.....I've seen just as much "evidence" that eating a ketogenic diet is the the ultimate way to reduce stress to the system....But I did take the time to read the blog along with the comments and try to understand were they are coming from. So at least he got a bit more traffic . I'll just put this on the back burner for now. Good luck anyhow.
                    I've been fear-mongered that after two years low carb my hair will fall out and I'll grow a penis. I'll take the honey!!!
                    "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

                    In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

                    - Ray Peat

                    Comment


                    • As for cottage cheese, generally it's an okay choice. But, from a Ray Peat perspective it does have some lactic acid. Ray is not a fan of fermented dairy as the lactic acid is also stressful and interferes with glucose metabolism. He says he rinses his cottage cheese before eating. That said, he also says that small amounts of yogurt or other fermented dairy shouldn't cause problems for a healthy person.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by bopfer View Post
                        As for cottage cheese, generally it's an okay choice. But, from a Ray Peat perspective it does have some lactic acid. Ray is not a fan of fermented dairy as the lactic acid is also stressful and interferes with glucose metabolism. He says he rinses his cottage cheese before eating. That said, he also says that small amounts of yogurt or other fermented dairy shouldn't cause problems for a healthy person.
                        I understand that is what Ray Peat recommends. However, milk is very rich in IGF-1. Should human beings sitting at their desks all day be consuming huge doses of bovine insulin-like growth factor-1 on a daily basis? The lactic acid in yogurt and cheese destroys this IGF-1. I can also tell you firsthand that if I start drinking milk, I will get acne and I will develop allergies to pets and mold. I do not have this effect eating Greek yogurt, of which I consume 2 quarts a week. Ditching milk was the best thing I did for my skin and allergies, so obviously milk is highly inflammatory to my system. It also makes me quite gassy while yogurt and cottage cheese does not. I'd like to hear Peat's reasoning on this, because my n=1 seems to indicate the opposite of his research.
                        Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                          I understand that is what Ray Peat recommends. However, milk is very rich in IGF-1. Should human beings sitting at their desks all day be consuming huge doses of bovine insulin-like growth factor-1 on a daily basis? The lactic acid in yogurt and cheese destroys this IGF-1. I can also tell you firsthand that if I start drinking milk, I will get acne and I will develop allergies to pets and mold. I do not have this effect eating Greek yogurt, of which I consume 2 quarts a week. Ditching milk was the best thing I did for my skin and allergies, so obviously milk is highly inflammatory to my system. It also makes me quite gassy while yogurt and cottage cheese does not. I'd like to hear Peat's reasoning on this, because my n=1 seems to indicate the opposite of his research.
                          Ray never talks about IGF1 (That I can find), but since he recommends milk and really likes it as a quality source of protein, I am guessing he's not concerned. Most of the hoopla about IGF1 comes from T. Colin Campbell and the China Study. Which is all observational crap.

                          That said, there are definitely allergies to milk, but the issue is not the milk. The issue is you. Something with your metabolism, gut or body is not processing it properly. I had issues like you describe when I first started peat (9 months ago). Once key is to find the milk that works for you. Whole? 2%? 1%? skim? grass-fed? raw? pasteurized? ultra-pasteurized? brand? cow? goat? The other key is to start slow. Start with just a tablespoon of milk a day and work up. Personally, I round that raw, whole jersey milk works best for me. But, there are lots of Peat people that do best on ultra-pasteurized. A lot have issues with 2%, 1% or skim due to the emulsifiers used to add Vitamin A & D. For many, adding salt and simple syrup to milk helps. Some experimentation is required.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by bopfer View Post
                            Ray never talks about IGF1 (That I can find), but since he recommends milk and really likes it as a quality source of protein, I am guessing he's not concerned. Most of the hoopla about IGF1 comes from T. Colin Campbell and the China Study. Which is all observational crap.

                            That said, there are definitely allergies to milk, but the issue is not the milk. The issue is you. Something with your metabolism, gut or body is not processing it properly. I had issues like you describe when I first started peat (9 months ago). Once key is to find the milk that works for you. Whole? 2%? 1%? skim? grass-fed? raw? pasteurized? ultra-pasteurized? brand? cow? goat? The other key is to start slow. Start with just a tablespoon of milk a day and work up. Personally, I round that raw, whole jersey milk works best for me. But, there are lots of Peat people that do best on ultra-pasteurized. A lot have issues with 2%, 1% or skim due to the emulsifiers used to add Vitamin A & D. For many, adding salt and simple syrup to milk helps. Some experimentation is required.
                            That may hold up for lactose intolerance, but I doubt it with allergies. Raw whole milk gives me worse gas and bloating than pasteurized milk. The worst gas I've ever had came from whey protein. Funny thing is in yogurt or cheese form, I don't have issues with allergies, acne or gas. By that logic, you could cure any food sensitivity. If the problem is not milk but me, then celiacs can cure their disease by eating wheat. I don't see how that is true.
                            Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                              That may hold up for lactose intolerance, but I doubt it with allergies. Raw whole milk gives me worse gas and bloating than pasteurized milk. The worst gas I've ever had came from whey protein. Funny thing is in yogurt or cheese form, I don't have issues with allergies, acne or gas. By that logic, you could cure any food sensitivity. If the problem is not milk but me, then celiacs can cure their disease by eating wheat. I don't see how that is true.
                              I was actually reading about this today - many more people have difficulty with milk than yogurt. It's to do with the insulin response: On Dairy and Insulin | Mark's Daily Apple

                              BTW - does anyone else think that Danny Roddy and bopfer are THE SAME PERSON??? It would sure be a smart way to promote Danny's work.

                              PS. Apologies bopfer if you are actually a person.
                              "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

                              In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

                              - Ray Peat

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by YogaBare View Post
                                BTW - does anyone else think that Danny Roddy and bopfer are THE SAME PERSON??? It would sure be a smart way to promote Danny's work.

                                PS. Apologies bopfer if you are actually a person.
                                Haha, we are definitely different people. I am a former paleo/primal follower (2 years) that has been helped by Ray Peat's work in the last 9 months. I am just trying to relay the info I have learned as to help others understand Peat's perspective and keep the conversation going, which is a great one.

                                I still have issues and a way to go myself, but I feel I am healthier with Peat's work than when I was paleo.

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