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Why does Danny Roddy recommend sugar to reduce stress/estrogen?

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  • I think you guys are forgetting that Danny's approach is classified as "inside out" rather than being based on theoretical speculation of what our ancestors ate.
    Last edited by cfrizzle88; 07-07-2012, 11:48 PM. Reason: grammar

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    • I don't think we had central heat a million years ago either, must not be "ideal" then.

      To think of ruminant meat as "not ideal" because we didn't consume them millions of years ago (which is just a wild speculation too) is faulty thinking.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by cfrizzle88 View Post
        I don't think we had central heat a million years ago either, must not be "ideal" then.

        To think of ruminant meat as "not ideal" because we didn't consume them millions of years ago (which is just a wild speculation too) is faulty thinking.
        The idea is not to re-enact paleo times. It is to understand the types of foods that were available during the bulk of our evolutionary process. Our biochemistry would likely be most efficient in presence of those nutrients.

        Of course most of the foods are not exactly the same, but find the closest or next best thing would be idea.
        Using low lectin/nightshade free primal to control autoimmune arthritis. (And lost 50 lbs along the way )

        http://www.krispin.com/lectin.html

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        • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
          Insects, rodents and fish seem more likely to be consumed by humans, and potentially nuts as well. Due to the lack of technology, I see the more classic human diet having a large quantity of unsaturated fat in it and a total lack of ruminant meat, and therefore dairy as animal domestication is fairly new.
          I concur. If you want to be Paleo, eat grubs

          Originally posted by cfrizzle88 View Post
          I think you guys are forgetting that Danny's approach is classified as "inside out" rather than being based on theoretical speculation of what our ancestors ate.
          I'm struggling with Danny's ideas because I can't understand how supplementing with sugar has long term benefits. Aside from being nutritionally void, it's addictive. But then again, different things do work for different people.
          Last edited by YogaBare; 07-08-2012, 01:46 AM.
          "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

          In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

          - Ray Peat

          Comment


          • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
            Danny, I am unclear on something and I hope you can address it. Maybe this is borne out of ignorance because I am not well versed in Ray Peat's way of thinking, but this is the issue I have:

            From what I understand, Ray Peat advocates fruit sugar, red meat (beef and lamb), coconut and dairy in copious amounts. He hates fatty fish, chicken, pork, nuts, beans, grains, etc. The reason why is the former tends to store adipose tissue as saturated and monounsaturated fat, while the latter tends to store adipose tissue as monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fat. He believes unsaturated fats to be estrogen-producing, even monounsaturates (although to a lesser extent) and recommends as much saturated fat as possible with very limited consumption of fibrous vegetables (squashes, melons, citrus fruits are okay) and dislikes berries because they force you to eat the (toxic) seeds. I believe the only nut he'd ever consider eating are macadamias and in VERY limited quantities, correct?

            Now, what I understand is that Ray Peat dislikes high fat/low carbohydrate diets because they constantly have you tapping into adipose tissue. Because of the standard American diet, most people have unsaturated fat bound up in their adipose tissue, NOT saturated, so burning stored body fat has you dumping lots of unsaturates as free fatty acids in your blood stream. Since American's fat is unsaturate-rich, burning stored body fat creates stress, elevates estrogen and cortisol, and therefore sugar is recommended because it keeps us from dumping the unsatures into our blood stream.

            I have read studies and the consensus seems to be it takes anywhere from 2-10 years for adipose tissue turnover, meaning you'd have to adhere to Ray Peat's diet for ~4 years or so for the average person to convert their heavy monounsaturated/polyunsaturated adipose tissue into saturated/monounsaturated to lessen the damage by burning adipose tissue. Ray Peat seems to agree with this.

            - BUT -

            My question is, if this is all true, HOW DO YOU LOSE BODY FAT ON RAY PEAT'S DIET? It seems like the diet is engineered to keep you from using your stored fat as fuel. That's all well and good if you're highly active and very lean, but the overwhelming majority of us aren't. If I wanted to adopt a Ray Peat-style diet, how can I safely burn stored fat as fuel?
            Danny, I'm reposting this question because I didn't see a response to it (I've been waiting in breathless anticipation, since this was one of the first things that crossed my mind while reading RayPeat's articles); maybe you missed it?

            I have to admit that Ray Peat's suggestions have been really challenging for me, and I'm not yet sure what I think of his approach; I'm starting to experiment with adding a little more sugar to my diet, mostly in the form of fruit, with an occasional sugar (my rule is no corn syrup, though, so most commercial sodas are out of the question) or spoon of raw sugar here and there.

            I've always been a big believer of fruit, so that part is not a change, but the soda/spoon of sugar is; After drinking one (Pellegrino Aranciata is the best!) my normally low blood pressure and pulse speed up significantly. It kind of makes me feel like I'm on amphetamine, and I can't yet tell if that's a good thing or not. However, my low BP is not a good thing, either, and I think it might be contributing to my paralyzing fatigue. It dropped from being on the low end of normal to just plain low when I cut out grains and most sugar.

            In addition to Choco's question, I was wondering if you could speak a little about corn syrup. You've said that fruit is probably the best form of sugar, which is totally paleo compatible, but I couldn't find anywhere where Ray discusses cane/fruit sugar vs. high fructose corn syrup. I categorise HFCS with PUFA, but I' curious what the official stance is.
            Last edited by BestBetter; 07-08-2012, 03:17 AM.

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            • Another question - this one is about aspirin.

              I've read in Ray's articles that he is a big proponent of taking aspirin daily to reduce chronic inflammation. From my understanding, even taking enteric-coated aspirin can have some pretty nasty effects on the stomach, in the form of ulcers, bleeding, etc... because aspirin signals the stomache to produce less protective mucosa, even when the asprin is not dissolved in the stomach. What's your take on this?

              From: Johns Hopkins: Healthy Living on enteric aspirin: Special Reports

              Aspirin has long been known as an effective painkiller, but it's become as important for preventing stroke and heart attack as it is for preventing pain. Low-dose aspirin therapy helps prevent heart attack and stroke by keeping blood platelets from clumping together and forming dangerous clots. But this wonder drug also can produce gastrointestinal (GI) side effects, including an upset stomach. Long-term use of aspirin can cause GI bleeding and ulcers.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by cfrizzle88 View Post
                I'm just giving my experience. No need to belittle, and just because I didn't post here during those times does not mean I did not go through those phases. I guess if you don't post in a forum about it, then it didn't happen.
                Actually let me apologize for being snippy....not called for at all.

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                • Originally posted by YogaBare View Post
                  I concur. If you want to be Paleo, eat grubs



                  I'm struggling with Danny's ideas because I can't understand how supplementing with sugar has long term benefits. Aside from being nutritionally void, it's addictive. But then again, different things do work for different people.
                  I struggled with the idea before I started doing it. I'm no expert by any means, however, you can go back to what Danny said regarding thyroid hormone being a key factor in nutrient/mineral absorption. Sugar can greatly improve that thyroid function, resulting in a body that is better able to utilize what is given to it. He still recommends OJ as the bulk of carbohydrate intake (as well as the natural sugars milk) which has a decent amount of vit/min in it. Sugar is used more as a "supplement" or therapeutic agent.

                  Yes, sugar is devoid of nutrients, but in a diet that includes plenty of milk, meat, liver, broth, seafood, eggs, etc..it's not going to cause a "depletion", but, going back to the above statement, will make your body utilize them (nutrients) better due to the improved thyroid function.

                  Coconut oil (which is highly touted here), is completely devoid of nutrients just as white sugar is. Does that make it bad? No. The short and medium chain fatty acids and the highly saturated profile is what makes it beneficial, not the nutrient profile. This is similar to the glucose/fructose combination of white sugar, it's not the nutrients that make it beneficial, it's the hormonal effect from the thyroid/metabolism supportive energy that is produced.

                  Here's the breakdown of coconut oil.

                  Coconut Oil Nutritional Profile

                  I had good results on a high meat low carb diet, but they began to wane after a period of time. Personally, I wish I could eat only meat and be fine purely for simplicity's sake.

                  Experience is everything, I've ran the gamut of primal, peat, ZC, paleo, you name it. You can speculate on whether it's good/bad for days, I suggest somebody here actually try it with an open mind and then come to their own conclusion.
                  Last edited by cfrizzle88; 07-08-2012, 09:17 AM. Reason: added tidbit about coconut oil.

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                  • I actually do like his blog....especially the comments section here Carbon Dioxide: The Real Reason Safe Starches Are a Joke* - The Danny Roddy Weblog - Nutrition For Sex, Hair & Health. Good back and forth. While cliff and danny explain some of the why's to the protocol celine brings up some excellent points against it.

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                    • Originally posted by jammies View Post
                      This has all made me curious so I went and checked out your website and downloaded the "start here". Now I am a bit more confused. You recommend a diet of roughly 50% fat, 25% protein, 25% carbohydrate. Assuming a 2000 calorie diet that is about 500 calories of carbohydrate a day or about 125 grams.
                      Macronutrient ratios are arbitrary, but the guide lists 50% of carbohydrate, not fat.

                      Originally posted by YogaBare View Post
                      Do you mean that refined sugar is a quick fix for people who have particularly low metabolic rates? If so does this method also have long-term benefits or does it require a continual utilisation of sugar over the years?
                      Yes.

                      I think so. Keeping the metabolic rate up is important, so sugar, protein, salt, light, saturated fats and if necessary thyroid would all help in this area.

                      Originally posted by otzi View Post
                      I'm probably gonna get yelled at for this long cut-n-paste, but so many people are afraid to click links, so here it is, from: Peat vs.*Paleo - The Danny Roddy Weblog - Nutrition For Sex, Hair & Health
                      Keep in mind this article was written in April 2011. I've learned a lot since then.

                      Originally posted by otzi View Post
                      So, after reading the above, if you are dosing with fish oil or krill oil, or eating a lot of fatty seafood (salmon etc...), you don't want to arbitrarily start adding unlimited sugar to your diet. The sugar is only good in the near-complete absence of PUFAs, if I am reading correctly.
                      Sugar restrains the stress response.

                      Unsaturated fats are already in your tissue and are released during stress.

                      Saturated fats (especially coconut oil) and sugar both suppress the release of fats from the tissue.

                      Originally posted by cfrizzle88 View Post
                      I think you guys are forgetting that Danny's approach is classified as "inside out" rather than being based on theoretical speculation of what our ancestors ate.
                      ^^

                      Originally posted by YogaBare View Post
                      I'm struggling with Danny's ideas because I can't understand how supplementing with sugar has long term benefits. Aside from being nutritionally void, it's addictive. But then again, different things do work for different people.
                      Originally posted by dannyroddy View Post
                      A cup of sugar, gummy bears, and Mexican cola are hard to put in context until one adopts the idea that the metabolic rate is the underlining factor in health.

                      Fruit is probably "optimal", but for someone with a very low metabolic rate the addition of white sugar is like night and day.

                      Nutritionism to a certain point is not helpful. Thyroid hormone is needed to absorb a variety of vitamins and minerals and is needed in general for mineral balance.

                      Inflammatory stress hormones that increase during low thyroid, cause one to waste minerals.

                      Just adopting a 'solid traditional diet' may or may not address any of this.

                      Sugar, however, can be used like a supplement.
                      Originally posted by BestBetter View Post
                      Danny, I'm reposting this question because I didn't see a response to it (I've been waiting in breathless anticipation, since this was one of the first things that crossed my mind while reading RayPeat's articles); maybe you missed it?
                      Originally posted by dannyroddy View Post
                      I'm replying mostly from my phone, so I apologize if I've missed any questions; it's not on purpose.

                      If I had a considerable amount of weight to lose (I was 170 lb. on zero carb), I'm about (150 lb. now; consuming about 400+ grams of sugar a day) I would focus on restoring the metabolic rate (pulse, body temperature, mood, libido) by consuming enough sugar and protein (80-100+ grams) while tapering the amount of fat I consumed (refined coconut oil would probably be the best weight loss fat).

                      Calcium is an important factor in weight loss. Obtaining a fairly large amount of calcium (5-7 grams a day and the cofactors) can decrease inflammation, stress, and increase the metabolic rate.

                      A test to assess your calcium status is called PTH.

                      Remember, going on a low-carb diet is NOT the only way to lose fat. The muscles continually use fat at rest.

                      Cliff McCrary wrote a great article on weight loss: Co2 Factor: Practical ways to lose fat
                      A group in Los Angeles found that HFCS contained numerous substances other than glucose/fructose.

                      They also found that it had 4-5 times as many calories.

                      Originally posted by BestBetter View Post
                      Another question - this one is about aspirin.

                      I've read in Ray's articles that he is a big proponent of taking aspirin daily to reduce chronic inflammation. From my understanding, even taking enteric-coated aspirin can have some pretty nasty effects on the stomach, in the form of ulcers, bleeding, etc... because aspirin signals the stomache to produce less protective mucosa, even when the asprin is not dissolved in the stomach. What's your take on this?.
                      Read Ray's article on Aspirin.

                      Aspirin, brain, and cancer

                      Originally posted by Ray Peat
                      Although the animal studies that showed stomach damage from aspirin often used single doses equivalent to 10 or 100 aspirin tablets, the slight irritation produced by a normal dose of aspirin can be minimized by dissolving the aspirin in water. The stomach develops a tolerance for aspirin over a period of a few days, allowing the dose to be increased if necessary. And both aspirin and salicylic acid can be absorbed through the skin, so rheumatic problems have been treated by adding the drug to bath water.
                      www.dannyroddy.com

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                      • Originally posted by cfrizzle88 View Post
                        I don't think we had central heat a million years ago either, must not be "ideal" then.

                        To think of ruminant meat as "not ideal" because we didn't consume them millions of years ago (which is just a wild speculation too) is faulty thinking.
                        Muscle meats are nutrient-dense, excellent sources of protein, but contain a high phosphate to calcium ratio.

                        A high phosphate to calcium ratio can increase parathyroid hormone, a hormone involved in bone loss, stress, and inflammation.
                        www.dannyroddy.com

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by dannyroddy View Post
                          I'm replying mostly from my phone, so I apologize if I've missed any questions; it's not on purpose.

                          If I had a considerable amount of weight to lose (I was 170 lb. on zero carb), I'm about (150 lb. now; consuming about 400+ grams of sugar a day) I would focus on restoring the metabolic rate (pulse, body temperature, mood, libido) by consuming enough sugar and protein (80-100+ grams) while tapering the amount of fat I consumed (refined coconut oil would probably be the best weight loss fat).

                          Calcium is an important factor in weight loss. Obtaining a fairly large amount of calcium (5-7 grams a day and the cofactors) can decrease inflammation, stress, and increase the metabolic rate.
                          Hi Danny, when you mention the amount of sugar and protein, are the numbers in reference to both sugar and protein combined? Or 80-100 grams for EACH?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by They call me BUTTLOCK View Post
                            Hi Danny, when you mention the amount of sugar and protein, are the numbers in reference to both sugar and protein combined? Or 80-100 grams for EACH?
                            80-100 grams of protein

                            Unspecified amount of carbohydrate, because you can use simple self-diagnostics to figure it out (pulse, body temperature). If pulse is very low (60s, low 70s), more carbohydrate (and salt/calcium) is probably warranted.
                            www.dannyroddy.com

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                            • I find this thread very interesting! In the beginning of my own journey I was adament that all sweets except stevia were the devil!! And I did buy into eliminating all fruit for awhile. Eventually through my own n=1 and various incidents I added back in all fruit, and raw honey and sometimes other sugars. I do not eat 'sugary' store bought items ever because I can't do processed foods well. But I make desserts, and sorbets and juices and fruitsicles and other sweet things. Funny thing is that once I added back in carrots, sweet potatoes and desserts with fruits I lost my excess weight and regained my energy and my mood stabilized. I never thought it was because I added back the fructose but there is a connection,and I also added more salt. Very interesting and thanks for all of the links also. I love having new ideas to research

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                              • Danny said earlier:
                                "Cortisol is required to breakdown structure (muscles, thymus) for amino acids to convert into glucose when it's deficient. Damage can probably be minimized by consuming lots of protein, but a "higher functioning" of cortisol overtime can weaken the thymus ("immunity central"), suppress the thyroid, lower sex-drive, cause the intestine to become permeable (food allergies, poor digestion), and cause depression."

                                After being extremely low-carb for almost 2 years I began to experience all of the negative side effects, especially hormonal issues. I was experiencing extreme PMS and fibrocystic breasts. Both of these can be attributed to high estrogen.

                                I was also noticing more food related sensitivities and hypothyroid symptoms (exhaustion, freezing cold hands and feet ect.) I'm a big fan of primal and I have a lot of respect for Mark, but I also highly respect those who aren't afraid to question the process when things seem to be going wrong. I think that if low-carb primal/paleo is working for you and you do not notice ill effects, then fine. But if things start to go wrong down the line it is important to have some different ideas to consider.

                                I tried the throwing primal to the wind and eating ice cream and pizza to raise my metabolism for a little bit 180degreehealth style. I felt pretty good (other than initial issues with low blood sugar from the sudden reintroduction of carbs) but I have gained 15 lbs and it is all fat.

                                I've gone back to low carb but started adding back in sweet potatoes every day and I've found I'm feeling better. Seeing better estrogen clearance also. The extra weight I've gained hasn't budged though. My biggest problem right now, I can't seem to eat any vegetables (not even lettuce) or fruit without them tearing up my stomach. Sweet potatoes is all I can handle. Fructose malabsorption? This leaves me with only meat, fat and sweet potatoes. I am for sure banging my head against the wall trying to figure out what to do from here. I initially lost over 40 lbs since going primal and I promised myself I'd never let myself gain it all back.

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