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OH NOES I'M DYING! ECA Stack and Primal

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  • #16
    Originally posted by NicMcCool View Post
    Also, like I stated before, I'd be much happier to never have to do a BB show again. I hate them. There's nothing worse than standing in a light getting judged by out of shape has-beens while you're about to pass out from malnutrition. I'd be much happier sitting at a healthy 260 and lifting axles all day.
    Not to mention the banana hammock. That's gotta be thrilling to wear in front of a bunch of people.
    People too weak to follow their own dreams will always try to discourage others.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by NicMcCool View Post
      Like really, really nauseous. Like watching Bambi with your bros and trying not to cry nauseous.
      I have to say, you've quickly become my favorite poster

      On the nausea thing, I've had experience using many (strong) fat burners, but there was one I tried last year that quickly made me worship the porcelain throne after about 1 week of use. Once I realized that I was not actually ill, but it was the fat burners, I threw the bottle away.

      If it's a new stack and not something you've used before, it's possible that there's something in it that isn't agreeing with you.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Dirlot View Post
        Just did a quick google on ECA and ephederine is banned in Canada, USA and the netherlands. Given a quick check on the effects of the drugs in an ECA stack I am not surprised you are feeling nauseous.
        I am not sure if there is anything you can do to counteract the drugs.
        A tangent, really, but the reason ephedrine is banned is due to the fact that the DEA decided that the only use for it was in the manufacture of methamphetamines. You can ban just about anything if your narrative involves protecting children from drug abuse, or the flag.

        -PK
        My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

        Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

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        • #19
          So ...

          Ephedrine : adrenergic stimulant
          Caffeine : adrenergic stimulant
          Aspirin : blood thinner, and gastro-intestinal irritant

          Despite the irritant bit, I really doubt it's the aspirin that's causing the nausea. For me, caffeine is mildly nauseating and curbs my appetite, which is why I drink it religiously while fasting. Ephedrine does the exact same thing, just more so. Keep in mind that I'm a caffeine addict, so any habituation effects should have manifested a long time ago with my metabolism.

          To each his own, but I think you should dump that crap and try fasting. You are cutting after all, so all of this "starvation response" fear mongering should not bother you. But, let me leave you with some salient details:
          • Humans have significantly different hormonal responses to fasting than other mammals, and particularly rats.
          • Growth hormone secretion in humans increases five fold by day two of a fast. In rats, no change.
          • Growth hormone is protein sparing and fat mobilizing ... your bodybuilding brethren can probably give you more details.
          • Even for rats, a three day fast had no effect on muscle protein content, although they did lose significant amounts of non-protein mass, probably glycogen and water weight.


          Of course, your mileage may vary as it sounds like you're doing the traditional bodybuilding constant eating routine, which works especially well when you supplement with, ahem, protein synthesis enhancing substances. If you are supplementing in this manner, fasting will probably work even better as you have circulating growth factors that would actively prevent authophagy in muscle tissue.

          -PK
          Last edited by pklopp; 06-21-2012, 08:14 AM.
          My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

          Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

          Comment


          • #20
            I don't find it makes me feel sick, but I ditched the aspirin ages ago, only because I ran out and didn't bother to replace. I didn't notice any change in the effectiveness of the stack.

            ECA stack is no less primal than other medicines/supplements.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
              Dude, this has to be said. Either you do the stack OR you are Primal. Dosing yourself with chemical things that make you nauseated and bleed easily is not Primal. It comes under the heading of "Avoid Poisonous Things".
              came here to say this, and then saw it already! if it's an upper, or a combination of shit you can take for energy, speed or weightloss, i've done it. legal and illegal. that includes an ECA stack - i was a high school wrestler and water polo player, we did it all the time.

              i'm not going to speculate on how an ECA stack works, cause who cares, we know it does! is it literally poisonous? i have no clue, i doubt it. but should it fall under that category if we're going to interpret it by the spirit of the law, and not the letter of the law? FUCK YES.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by IcarianVX View Post
                Not to mention the banana hammock. That's gotta be thrilling to wear in front of a bunch of people.
                That's kinda the only thing I'm looking forward to, dude.

                Originally posted by Nivanthe View Post
                I have to say, you've quickly become my favorite poster
                Stop it, I'm blushing.

                Originally posted by pklopp View Post
                Of course, your mileage may vary as it sounds like you're doing the traditional bodybuilding constant eating routine, which works especially well when you supplement with, ahem, protein synthesis enhancing substances. If you are supplementing in this manner, fasting will probably work even better as you have circulating growth factors that would actively prevent authophagy in muscle tissue.

                -PK
                Dude, totally appreciate the info. Since I'm already on this kick I'm going to stick it out. As an update, I booted the aspirin and found no discernable difference in my wanting to unleash the acidic hounds per se. I rarely drink coffee, so I think you're on the right track with the caffeine and ephedrine making me sick. Unfortunately it looks like I'm gonna have to deal.

                I guess I understand the whole morning sickness thing now. I'm sorry, ladies.

                As for fasting, I'm planning on experimenting after a few months back on my bulk.

                Originally posted by bionicsamm View Post
                ECA stack is no less primal than other medicines/supplements.
                I don't even want to open up that can of worms.

                Originally posted by jakey View Post
                came here to say this, and then saw it already! if it's an upper, or a combination of shit you can take for energy, speed or weightloss, i've done it. legal and illegal. that includes an ECA stack - i was a high school wrestler and water polo player, we did it all the time.

                i'm not going to speculate on how an ECA stack works, cause who cares, we know it does! is it literally poisonous? i have no clue, i doubt it. but should it fall under that category if we're going to interpret it by the spirit of the law, and not the letter of the law? FUCK YES.

                Dude, are you sure you're not on any uppers/downers/sidewaysers right now. I have no clue what you're saying.
                I've got of one them journal thingies. One Night At McCool's

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by NicMcCool View Post
                  That's kinda the only thing I'm looking forward to, dude.

                  As for fasting, I'm planning on experimenting after a few months back on my bulk.

                  Dude, are you sure you're not on any uppers/downers/sidewaysers right now. I have no clue what you're saying.
                  If you think the banana hammock is fun, try posing in front of a bunch of people with your bikini top literally glued to your boobs so it won't slip. Then try taking it off later. Ouch.

                  I think PK is on the right track about fasting. I just did a 72 hour one and felt great. His three part series of posts on fasting were very informative.

                  What jakey was saying is that just because something is not going to make you drop dead this minute, doesn't mean it's not poison. I agree but you seem to have your mind made up. Nobody could talk sense to me at your age either. Yes, I know I sound really old when I say that. Listen to your elders, child.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by NicMcCool View Post
                    Dude, are you sure you're not on any uppers/downers/sidewaysers right now. I have no clue what you're saying.
                    what is so confusing? nevermind dude, take your ECA stack and bitch about feeling "really, really nauseous."

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Nivanthe View Post

                      On the nausea thing, I've had experience using many (strong) fat burners, but there was one I tried last year that quickly made me worship the porcelain throne after about 1 week of use. Once I realized that I was not actually ill, but it was the fat burners, I threw the bottle away.

                      If it's a new stack and not something you've used before, it's possible that there's something in it that isn't agreeing with you.
                      Absolutely THIS.

                      I've tried everything under the sun as well, and there were *some* that made me feel SO DAMN NASTY, even
                      just 1/4th of the dose...

                      Where the stuff I buy that's super cheap from the pharmacist at the drug store (pm me if you want the
                      name of it) NEVER makes me feel like I'm going to hurl, EVER.

                      I never added the aspirin either, just for the record.

                      The crap that made me want to hurl was slim-quick and exenedrine (something like that) for women.

                      Lame and hella expensive.

                      Anyway, good luck.

                      I'd actually just try doing the ephedrine without the caffeine as well, see how you do on just that.


                      Julie

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                        What jakey was saying is that just because something is not going to make you drop dead this minute, doesn't mean it's not poison. I agree but you seem to have your mind made up. Nobody could talk sense to me at your age either. Yes, I know I sound really old when I say that. Listen to your elders, child.
                        This cracked me up.

                        But honestly, so as not to give the wrong impression, I do appreciate all the advice. Knowing my schedule/habits I'll more than likely have to cut again at some point, and I'm fairly certain I'll never do the ECA stack again. With that said, I'm coming up pretty close to the show date, and, as you said you've done this before (BB show, that is) you understand that changing a regimine this close, especially when it comes to calories, it's pretty freaking scary. That's why I'm trying to treat the nausea, if I can, but I continue on the stack.

                        Wasn't the smartest thing to do to get on it in the first place, I totally admit to that.

                        Originally posted by jakey View Post
                        what is so confusing? nevermind dude, take your ECA stack and bitch about feeling "really, really nauseous."
                        Calm down, kid.
                        I've got of one them journal thingies. One Night At McCool's

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by NicMcCool View Post
                          I'm fairly certain I'll never do the ECA stack again.

                          Wasn't the smartest thing to do to get on it in the first place, I totally admit to that.
                          Huzzah for sanity! <waves walker in the air> There is hope for these crazy kids after all.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I'm not sure if this will help with the ephedrine nausea or not but I know it helps with nausea caused by other problems. 1 Tbsp apple cider vinegar. Give it a try. Depending on when you start your HCl that may make a difference as well.

                            On another note, Fish oil. Fish oil fish oil fish oil. I'm 185 and 7% BF and take 15 grams a day. I could be lower but I personally don't have the need. You my large Irish log crusher friend should probably take upwards of 30 grams a day. Helps you to get nice and lean with no nausea. OH and it's anabolic! Side effects are the odd fish burp. The dog loves it, wife... not so much.

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                            • #29
                              Most of the arguements that people make for aspirin state that aspirin extends the thermogenic effects of ephedrine by inhibiting the enzyme cyclooxygenase and therefore decreasing prostaglandin synthesis (why aspirin is an anti-inflammatory). This helps combat one of ephedrine's effects. Ephedrine stimulates the release of norepinephrine, which stimulates the release of adenosine and the synthesis of prostaglandins by the activated tissue. Since aspirin inhibits the synthesis of prostaglandins (1), it is believed it enhances the effect of norepinephrine (the reason why caffeine is included in the stack to combat adenosine). By increasing the amount of norepinephrine one would expect to increase lipolysis. Caffeine achieves this, however in actual studies aspirin as yet to prove the same. One can only hypothesize on why aspirin's effect on prostaglandins does not effect lipolysis.


                              There have been no studies that I am aware of that show that an ECA stack is more effective than an EC stack. The only studies that have been proven to work are when an ECA stack has been done in a study against a placebo. Couple this information with the effects aspirin has on the stomach (nausea, heartburn, and sometimes bleeding ulcers) one could conclude that the most effective stack would be just Ephedrine and Caffeine.

                              1. Rawson ES, Clarkson PA. Ephedrine as an ergogenic aid. Performance-enhancing Substances in Sport and Exercise. ED Bahrke MS, Yesalis CE. Human Kinetics. 2002.
                              I never had nausea using an EC stack. You could try to sub white willow for aspirin to see if that helps.

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