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My personal experiment. Quick transition to ketosis?

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  • #31
    I'm subscribing to this thread, too.

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    • #32
      [QUOTE=Lewis;870910]Yeah, very interesting book. One of the premier books on low-carb.





      You don't give the context or the page reference. I think this is in the context of sustained exercise -- and that mainly aerobic but sometimes passing into anaerobic.


      Thanks for reply, good discussion, think it will help the OP.
      It is on page 55 of 'The art and science of low carb performance', I have read it a few other places of the last few months.

      They stress in the above book the importance of testing ketones via a blood testing kit, and not by the sticks as they are not very accurate.

      Also, they stress if you are keto adapted, you shouldnt carb-up after exercise. If your not keto-adapted then it's better to do the post workout carbs.

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      • #33
        Why going into ketosis?
        What's the point?
        Everything is bad for something - How do you feel today?

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        • #34
          Originally posted by JonnyH View Post
          Thanks for reply, good discussion, think it will help the OP.
          It is on page 55 of 'The art and science of low carb performance', I have read it a few other places of the last few months.
          Right. Skimming that section -- this is interesting:

          Even at this relatively slow pace of 6 miles per hour, about half of your muscle fuel will come from glucose or glycogen, so that you burn about 250 kcal of carbohydrate fuel ... Typically in this setting people start to feel lousy.
          I've read the book, but hadn't recalled that that could happen with fairly low intensity sustained exercise. And this is why the current advice of calorie restriction and exercise doesn't work. Because, as they show, even a high-carb diet, if it's calorie-restricted enough can't supply sufficient carbohydrate to sustain sustained aerobic exercise. (Incidentally, the fact that such diets work at all probably being, sorry Conventional Wisdom, because they don't supply many carbs, so don't spike insulin.)

          I haven't read the whole chapter in V & P in detail again. I find it hard to decide whether they're talking in the context of exercise or not. It keeps coming in -- and, of course, they are interested in exercise physiology.

          I do think the whole feel of the chapter, and I thought this the first time I read it, is that people should either be eating above 150 g carbohydrate a day or below 50 g: choose either but chose one or the other. (However, that doesn't seem to be the message of the book New Atkins, New You from the same authors -- where the message seems to be, after losing, find your individual carbohydrate level and stay there.)

          I don't know. Those are fascinating discussions in V & P. But I still have questions. What about when the protein level is higher than they were using with the bike racers? They used 15% protein, going by what Stefansson ate in Bellevue Hospital. What if you're up at 20 or 25 or more? While I have doubts that hunter-gatherers consistently ate at levels close to 30% of calories (Cordain's upper figure), because that gets you close to protein-poisoning level, I don't see them sticking to 15% of calories (and a mere 26000 kcals) like Stefansson in Bellevue. There are plenty of accounts of hunters sitting around feasting on pounds of meat when they have it. And even if it's very fatty ... well, I guess it's going o add up to quite a few grams of protein, and you only need so much protein for body-repair ...

          They stress in the above book the importance of testing ketones via a blood testing kit, and not by the sticks as they are not very accurate.
          Yes, I recall that.

          Also, they stress if you are keto adapted, you shouldnt carb-up after exercise. If your not keto-adapted then it's better to do the post workout carbs.
          That I hadn't recalled. The TNT Diet, to which Volek contributed, was very much in favor of post-workout carbs.
          Last edited by Lewis; 06-17-2012, 11:55 AM.

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          • #35
            This is interesting!

            With regard to the sticks; I believe that they're only reliable when you're first transitioning into ketosis. So when your body first begins to produce ketones, it secretes most of them, which registers on the sticks as "deep ketosis". Then, when you're truly in "deep ketosis", you use the ketones as fuel rather than secreting them, so the sticks will suggest you're not in ketosis even though you are.

            Before starting crossfit I was in ketosis a lot; I could always tell because of the way my mouth tasted and because I would get extremely thirsty. I think people have different "symptoms", but I think in general you can tell when you're making the transition.

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            • #36
              Only ever tested trace ketones in urine. On day 4, blood was negative for ketones. Maybe it's the caffeine? Maybe the excess protein kept me out. But at this point I'm not sure there's any point in bothering all the way to day 8. I might can this attempt and eat normally for a month while quitting caffeine, then try again sans-coffee.
              Crohn's, doing SCD

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              • #37
                Interesting experiment! I look forward to hearing about round 2.
                I wish I liked to eat liver.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Knifegill View Post
                  Only ever tested trace ketones in urine. On day 4, blood was negative for ketones. Maybe it's the caffeine? Maybe the excess protein kept me out. But at this point I'm not sure there's any point in bothering all the way to day 8. I might can this attempt and eat normally for a month while quitting caffeine, then try again sans-coffee.
                  Hi Knifegill, that's a shame you feeling that way. Be interested to hear any comments regarding caffeine, I cant recall anywhere that caffeine would keep you out of ketosis. Too much protein would hinder going into ketosis from what I have read recently.

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                  • #39
                    Thought this may be of some use to you, Knifegill.

                    "3B. Saturated vs. Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids

                    A ketogenic diet which utilizes a majority (60%) of polyunsaturated fatty acids versus saturated fatty acids has been proven superior. A diet high in polyunsaturated fatty acids induces a deeper ketosis in which levels of beta-hydroxybutyrate are significantly higher, and insulin sensitivity is increased. Since beta-hydroxybutyrate levels increase when a majority of dietary fats are polyunsaturated, it stands to reason that fat lipolysis and beta oxidation activity increase as well; so, in other words, you will rid yourself of fat more quickly and easily if a majority of your fat percentage comes from things like seeds, nuts, oils, and fatty fish.

                    In order to enter ketosis more fully, the ideal ratio is 60/20/20 polyunsaturated/monounsaturated/saturated fatty acids. Be sure not to cut saturated fats out completely. They are good fats, and they fill many vital metabolic roles."

                    From a very well written thread over at the BB forums: A Guide to Ketosis - Bodybuilding.com Forums
                    this great blue world of ours seems a house of leaves, moments before the wind

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by bdilla View Post
                      Thought this may be of some use to you, Knifegill.

                      "3B. Saturated vs. Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids

                      A ketogenic diet which utilizes a majority (60%) of polyunsaturated fatty acids versus saturated fatty acids has been proven superior. A diet high in polyunsaturated fatty acids induces a deeper ketosis in which levels of beta-hydroxybutyrate are significantly higher, and insulin sensitivity is increased. Since beta-hydroxybutyrate levels increase when a majority of dietary fats are polyunsaturated, it stands to reason that fat lipolysis and beta oxidation activity increase as well; so, in other words, you will rid yourself of fat more quickly and easily if a majority of your fat percentage comes from things like seeds, nuts, oils, and fatty fish.

                      In order to enter ketosis more fully, the ideal ratio is 60/20/20 polyunsaturated/monounsaturated/saturated fatty acids. Be sure not to cut saturated fats out completely. They are good fats, and they fill many vital metabolic roles."

                      From a very well written thread over at the BB forums: A Guide to Ketosis - Bodybuilding.com Forums
                      That's interesting, from 'The art and science of low carb living' they recommend lower amounts of PUFA, more Mono and Sat fats. They say the high total fat intake you have, the lower the PUFA's should be.
                      I was reading an article online this lunchtime which also said the same, I'll dig it out and post it later.

                      Be good to hear what's right on this matter!

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by JonnyH View Post
                        That's interesting, from 'The art and science of low carb living' they recommend lower amounts of PUFA, more Mono and Sat fats. They say the high total fat intake you have, the lower the PUFA's should be.
                        I was reading an article online this lunchtime which also said the same, I'll dig it out and post it later.

                        Be good to hear what's right on this matter!
                        Yeah, but Volek and Phinney's book is a book about the science of low carbohydrate diets and by two university professors.

                        The suggestion to drink large quantities of PUFAs seems, by contrast, to have come from a bodybuilding forum and to have been recommended on the basis that it would quicker.

                        To be frank bodybuilders don't really care what's healthy or not and would take a drug that would fry their insides if it made them look a little more like what their peculiar sense of aesthetics inclines them to think of as "better" in the short term.

                        Bottom line: do you want a quick and dirty solution or a healthy one?

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Lewis View Post
                          Yeah, but Volek and Phinney's book is a book about the science of low carbohydrate diets and by two university professors.

                          The suggestion to drink large quantities of PUFAs seems, by contrast, to have come from a bodybuilding forum and to have been recommended on the basis that it would quicker.

                          To be frank bodybuilders don't really care what's healthy or not and would take a drug that would fry their insides if it made them look a little more like what their peculiar sense of aesthetics inclines them to think of as "better" in the short term.

                          Bottom line: do you want a quick and dirty solution or a healthy one?
                          This is true, but the OP is actually performing an experiment on the *quick* way to get in ketosis; his hypothesis was that performing a dramatic reduction in carbohydrates would rapidly propel him into ketosis. If the information I quoted is correct, it could be exactly the thing that the OP is missing.
                          this great blue world of ours seems a house of leaves, moments before the wind

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by bdilla View Post
                            This is true, but the OP is actually performing an experiment on the *quick* way to get in ketosis; his hypothesis was that performing a dramatic reduction in carbohydrates would rapidly propel him into ketosis. If the information I quoted is correct, it could be exactly the thing that the OP is missing.
                            I hear what your saying, but surely if it's not healthy, why do it?

                            To qoute V & P, eating too much PUFA on a high fat diet is 'completely invalid(if not dangerous)'

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