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  • #31
    Look, kids could and should can eat a wide variety of foods that are healthful for their bodies. The gluten thing is beside the point. . . A strawman. Most of the kids with gluten intolerance are eating gluten free facsimiles of bread, etc. anyway. Not relevant. What percentage of them are eating "primal?" it is probably not even statistically significant.

    Look, i know there is no point in arguing with nutritional fundamentalists. . . Over and out!

    Comment


    • #32
      wait, in one thread i'm not strict enough (my kids are sugar addicts!!), and in another i'm a fundamentalist. lol, which am i?? please tell me because obviously i need to change.
      my primal journal:
      http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...Primal-Journal

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by icz View Post
        Kids grow and gain weight on complex carbs the same way adults do. (What the OP wants, correct?) In us, it can be unhealthy, but find me an article that says whole wheat pasta is bad for normal or underweight kids. Kids also happen to like pasta and breads, and that is for a reason. Their bodies need more glucose than ours. Not ring-dings or Twinkies or Koolaid, but real, complex carbs.

        I am a mom, and a food educator, and a food writer -- so I do speak with some authority. If I were to limit my 8-year old son to the primally "accepted" foods, (meaning no WW pasta, bread, or tortillas) he would be beyond skinny. We need to trust their bodies inherent wisdom as well.
        Your response doesn't even make sense unless you're viewing Paleo/Primal as a weight-loss diet vs. a healthy lifestyle diet. THere is a reason it eschews cereal grains and that is due to the poor nutrient absorption issues, anti-nutrients AS WELL AS the historical argument that they are a new intro to the human diet. If humans survived for eons without grains why do we consider them essential now?
        Teacher and Homeschooler
        One husband of 9 years,
        Two kids (6 & 3)
        Pregnant with #3, due this summer

        Going primal resolved my anxiety symptoms!!!

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by FrankiG View Post
          Your response doesn't even make sense unless you're viewing Paleo/Primal as a weight-loss diet vs. a healthy lifestyle diet. THere is a reason it eschews cereal grains and that is due to the poor nutrient absorption issues, anti-nutrients AS WELL AS the historical argument that they are a new intro to the human diet. If humans survived for eons without grains why do we consider them essential now?
          +1
          i guess you're a fundamentalist too!
          my primal journal:
          http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...Primal-Journal

          Comment


          • #35
            Have your kids always been really thin? They could be dairy intolerant. My son was and he didn't gain weight until the dairy was out of his and my diet. He's doing even better with fewer grains. Just something to look into...
            I'm a 5'-6" tall female.

            SW: 212.4 lbs. February 14, 2013 (My second baby was born)
            CW:166.4 lbs.
            GW: 143 lbs.

            Just keep going.

            New goal:

            Get back to 80-90% Primal and back down to my lowest recent weight of 158 lbs. while doing as much moving and strength training as I can get in.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Saoirse View Post
              wait, in one thread i'm not strict enough (my kids are sugar addicts!!), and in another i'm a fundamentalist. lol, which am i?? please tell me because obviously i need to change.
              Clearly you are all over the place

              Remember, icz speaks with some authority. A little respect wouldn't hurt.
              Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

              Griff's cholesterol primer
              5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
              Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
              TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
              bloodorchid is always right

              Comment


              • #37
                not sure if that was tongue-in-cheek.

                i'm a mom, informed food consumer, and i guess a rebel without a cause. does that qualify me to get huffy? a friend's daughter faced this and her pediatrician suggested that the child be stuffed with ice cream and cookies. the mom decided instead just to feed her daughter nutritious, calorie-dense foods (she's mostly primal even though she doesn't know what that means).
                my primal journal:
                http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...Primal-Journal

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Saoirse View Post
                  not sure if that was tongue-in-cheek.
                  The smiley didn't give it away?

                  I think that icz is wrong, because even though there's nothing wrong with kids eathing more carbs, there's still no reason for them to be eating wheat other than 'because everyone else does'.
                  Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

                  Griff's cholesterol primer
                  5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
                  Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
                  TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
                  bloodorchid is always right

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by magicmerl View Post

                    I think that icz is wrong, because even though there's nothing wrong with kids eathing more carbs, there's still no reason for them to be eating wheat other than 'because everyone else does'.
                    Um, yes - that's what I said, they should be eating more carbs. Where did I say they should do it because "everyone else does?"

                    And Saoirse, I didn't direct any comments at you that I am aware of. Ice cream and cookies is ridiculous.

                    magicmerl - You are a riot! A riot, I tell you!

                    I think it might behoove some folks to look at the posters original question - -how to promote weight gain in a kid. I am not confusing the issue - I think the issue is most of us are thinking about what is healthy for us, and not for underweight kids. And yes, I went so far as to say that those who console themselves with the "all the other kids are just fat" when talking about the average kid, are wrong. I think that is pure conjecture, and meant to make someone we don't even know feel better about a situation we know very little about. I don't think that is responsible.

                    I think most people would agree that some complex carbs, including ww bread and pasta, but also sweet potatoes, etc. will help a kid gain weight. Is a kid gonna quaff enough coconut oil to do that? Enough sweet potatoes (yeah, maybe a couple - no kid I know.) The satiety factor is too high in things like fatty grass fed meat; it isn't likely to happen. I was irritated when I wrote the nutritional fundamentalist part, but that is how it feels in here -- either toe the line or be attacked by the snark squad. People write about how vegans are mean-spirited. . . I can't say it is Kumbaya here!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      icz, are your feelings hurt after you dismissed everyone else here as "a bunch of ideologues on an internet site", and then presented your credentials as if you were the only person worth listening to? Please accept my condolences.

                      Most of your post was decent. However, this statement "If I were to limit my 8-year old son to the primally "accepted" foods, (meaning no WW pasta, bread, or tortillas) he would be beyond skinny." may or may not be true. When reading it I interpreted you to be meaning that those foods should be given to kids. And I disagree with that. I think that there better (i.e. more healthy) ways to increase calorific intake.

                      Like Saoirse said, the best way to do that is with the most energy dense macro nutrient, i.e. Fat. Fatty meats, fatty dairy etc. Carbohydrates are fine too, but I'd head for the sweet potatoes and other safe starches rather than wheat based products.

                      You certainly didn't say to eat wheat "because everyone else does". That was me being tongue-in-cheek. What are your reasons for recommending wheat to the OP? I don't know how long you have been reading the MDA site, but here's a wheat post (spoiler alert: the title is 'why grains are unhealthy').

                      I'm not trying to antagonise you. It just seemed like you were being dismissive of everyone else here and at the same time giving some advice that I disagreed with. Does that make sense?

                      "People write about how vegans are mean-spirited. . . I can't say it is Kumbaya here! " For sure. I actually think that primal people have much more similarities with vegans than differences. Perhaps that's why there's so much 'vegan teasing' in various posts?
                      Last edited by magicmerl; 06-06-2012, 09:25 PM.
                      Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

                      Griff's cholesterol primer
                      5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
                      Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
                      TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
                      bloodorchid is always right

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        yeah, but you lump us all together. as i said, i've been attacked because i let my kids have sugar once in a while. there's no need for an underweight kid to have gluten-containing foods. primal-baked goods (made with rice, almond, coconut flours) are more "fattening" and reduce the risk of causing gut issues (which could make the weight issue worse). my "bulk up muscle" comment was because a chubby kid with a low lean body mass is not healthy. kids need a high lean body mass plus a decent amount of fat to be healthy. the muscles make kid activities more fun because they have to exert less effort at them, and the fat+muscle is in case if the child becomes sick and doesn't eat for a period of time. last fall, my daughter was feverish and unable to eat for 4 days. i finally took her in to the ER when she started to hallucinate, and they said there was nothing they could do for her except give her an antiviral med and something that would force her stomach to keep the food down. i didn't think that was wise, so we declined, but i was very glad that had a bit of muscle and fat on her bones to sustain her through that. she lost a little weight, but quickly gained it back after she was well.

                        anyway, i didn't see anyone suggesting that the kid should be restricted from carbs or calories at all, so your comment seemed to be kind of reactionary. potatoes and primal baked goods will do just as good of a job bulking a kid up as anything wheat-based, while also avoiding the potential for wheat-related gut issues that could potentially make the low-weight worse.
                        my primal journal:
                        http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...Primal-Journal

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by icz View Post
                          I think it might behoove some folks to look at the posters original question - -how to promote weight gain in a kid. I am not confusing the issue - I think the issue is most of us are thinking about what is healthy for us, and not for underweight kids.
                          Yes, but the OP said this:
                          They eat rice/potatoes at least once a day. Lots of fruit and veggies. Meat at least 2 meals/day.
                          That diet looks great to me. There's no major flaws. They are already getting a good whack of carbs, and enough meat (protein). The OP says they don't need more fat, that they get PLENTY.

                          There's really only three possible 'solutions' to the OP's dilemma:
                          1. The kids are already getting enough calories and don't need more
                          2. The kids could get more calories from carbohydrates
                          3. The kids could get more calories from fat

                          I still think that either (1) or (3) are most likely to be the 'correct' solution to the OP's problem. Although I can see why you reached (2), since that's the natural conclusion to the way the OP is phrased.
                          Last edited by magicmerl; 06-06-2012, 07:23 PM.
                          Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

                          Griff's cholesterol primer
                          5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
                          Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
                          TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
                          bloodorchid is always right

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            I appreciate your responses, and apologize for my over-zealous choice of words in a couple of cases. I guess it comes down to my belief that there is not one right way to eat. . . While I can get on board with primal eating as an adult, and think it would solve many of the world's ills, when I see a person asking what to do about their "skeletal" kids and everyone else is responding "Oh, it is everyone else. . .the norm is skewed," etc. i wonder how responsible that is? It shouldn't come as a surprise that there are people here with food issues, and how do we know if someone is just pushing their issues on their kids and the kids are suffering for it? The tone of the post worried me, and i thought I'd at least be an alternate voice.

                            But back to the issue at hand, I do honestly think the list of "safe starches" is pretty limited for kids. I mean, taro and tapioca? Many of those things, including potatoes, have serious texture issues for palate-sensitive kids. I also don't think we can all assume that gluten is bad for everyone, uniformly. Ideal? Maybe not. But we are adults who can eat to our "ideal," and not underweight children. I guess that is just my opinion.

                            If one's kids are thriving on a primal diet, more power to them. . . Really! But, it didn't sound like that was the case for the OP.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by icz View Post
                              If one's kids are thriving on a primal diet, more power to them. . . Really! But, it didn't sound like that was the case for the OP.
                              Yeah, you're right.

                              Our kids are thriving on primal, so it's a little hard for us to give advice that is greatly different from 'do the things we do with our kids'.

                              Getting off topic, we have friends who have a little 5yo boy who is very little. His parents are little, but he is small even for his family. Our 2yo boy (who is big for his age) is taller and bigger than this 5yo. His parents are worried about how much he eats and carry white bread sandwiches and potato chips around for him to eat all the time (they are also firm adherents to CW). It's hard for me to give advice on this thread without having this boy in the back of my mind as I type.

                              Edit: Of course, it's also possible that you might be reading more into a single word (skeletal) than is there.
                              Last edited by magicmerl; 06-06-2012, 09:27 PM.
                              Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

                              Griff's cholesterol primer
                              5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
                              Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
                              TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
                              bloodorchid is always right

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                you are really prone to hyperbole, icz.

                                "everyone else" was not saying that the numbers are skewed, etc. A couple of people mentioned that difference, not "everyone else."

                                most of us asserted that it would be good for the child to have more complex carbohydrates/starches, that it would be good to go higher-fat as well (which is most nutrient dense).

                                What you have failed to explain is why wheat is the better choice. You simply assert -- over and over -- that restriction is the problem, not that choosing this food source will create healthy, appropriate weight gain.

                                You assert that "we know it causes weight gain in adults" -- and we know it does this by way of inflammation, creating gut issues, and possibly leading to pretty major metabolic issues. If it causes these problems in adults, why would we want to give it to children as a staple food in order to "help them gain weight" via these issues?

                                Instead, you simply assert your ethos, that you "have your opinion."

                                If you can put forth a logical reason why wheat in should be the first 'go-to' -- I'd be happy to hear it.

                                Additionally, you are mistaken that the comparison with the GF community is a "straw man." It is absolutely a comparable community. While it may be true that many of them do utilize baked goods in the US, here in NZ, it's quite the opposite. GF baking is reserved for treats, and usually using the less expensive flours such as tapioca. The products are too expensive for weekly consumption for most families.

                                I have many friends whose families are GF, and most of them simply avoid breads, pastas and tortillas, and will make their own home-made treats (cakes, cookies, scones, breads) on a relatively regular basis using the tapioca, coconut, and sometimes chickpea flours. On rare occasion, they'll use spelt and rye -- rare because these are expensive flours here. Mostly, they ate "primal" -- though they know nothing about it.

                                When this community needs to 'fatten up" their kids, they simply cannot turn to wheat, and most of them cannot afford bread. But they can afford more butter, or tallow, or lard, or using offal such as marrow. They'll also use more pumpkin, potato, sweet potato, and similar. It's where they go.

                                So why would we choose otherwise?

                                Comment

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