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  • #31
    I don't think this thread was started just because of Gadsie. I have noticed ( as a newbie) that there are several posters, who are young and female, that worry me in regards to eating disorders. It breaks my heart to read their posts because thats where I was 35 years ago. I never got to the point of anorexia or bulimia but my life sure revolved around calories and diets. Continued to the present and I was never really fat as a teen. Struggled with 30-40 pounds all my life since then.

    The thing that got me really trying to do something about it was watching my Dad as he was dying at 76 fretting about his weight. I swore I was not going to be doing this in my 70's.

    Anyway, I digress. I think that most of the posts to the potential eating disorder youngsters have been good and encouraging them to eat naturally. I only hope they "get it".
    Last edited by snoops; 05-29-2012, 03:08 PM.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by NobleSavage View Post
      Second EDIT: I'm 18 now, and so a bit biased on the 'teenage' discussion. I agree with nixxy. There is a huge difference in just a few years for males. But the solution here isn't to encourage Gadsie not to post. I can relate to alot of the worry, and (nutritional) insecurity that i gather from Gadsies post. How can the 'obvious' solution to this be limiting his possibility of venting this stuff? He (and i too) am lucky that a place like this exists on the internet. A place with well intentioned sensical advice on nutrition. You'd rather have teenagers visiting the borderline-anorexic vegetarian sites?
      Also how can paleo/primal/LCHF NOT be for teenagers? The whole point of this is that we were evolved to eat like this. Its obviously for every age. If it wasn't it'd be a fad like so many other 'diets'.
      You posted as I was writing.

      I'm a bit older than you. I've also worked with the mentally ill. What we see in Gadsie is someone who is full of so much anxiety it has turned into an obsessive compulsive disorder. What he does is he winds himself up with anxiety, then seeks to come here and ask the same question phrased just a little differently over and over and over again. He asks the same question not because he really needs an answer but because of his anxiety. When we answer it doesn't help him at all. It's the exact same mechanism as the jealous boyfriend who has to contact his girlfriend all the time to find out where she is. It's not that knowing where she is ever makes him feel better. It's the same as the person who washes their hands over and over again. It's not like their hands are truly dirty or cleaning them makes them feel any cleaner. In Gadsie's case, he obsessively seeks reassurance from us. Of course it doesn't work at all so he keeps doing it.

      I'm not sure what responsibility we all have to Gadsie or someone like him. He's got parents. They should be taking care of him. Do they not care? Are they too busy? Is Gadsie actually older than he says? Maybe he's really 25 years old in which case we're just being roped into an older person's mental illness. In any case, whether we reassure him or not, he'll keep asking. He's very sick. He needs professional help. It might even be better for him if we made him even sicker so he seeks it, I don't know.
      Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by jenn26point2 View Post
        And if you look at any 'diet pill' it even says "not to be used by individuals under the age of 18"... why would a weight loss/specialized nutrition site be any different? Besides, he (Mark) didn't talk about Primal for teenagers, leading me to believe he either has no opinion on the matter (under 18 adopting primal safely) or disagrees with it.
        marks has written posts on children and infants, though.

        I sincerely applaud any teenagers coming to MDA for health/nutrition advice. you guys know as well as i do that childhood obesity rates are high, and what better way to combat that then to cut out the crap and focus on nutrient-dense foods? would you rather obese teens run on a treadmill and stuff their faces with nutrient-poor "low-cal" foods? beyond the scope of weight loss, simply being aware of nutrient density, the benefits of not restricting fat, etc. are important lessons for teens to take in.
        my primal journal:
        http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...Primal-Journal

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        • #34
          I just read somewhere, that Paleo-People tend to like Crossfitbabes so i would prefere my Teenage kid to wish to evolve into a Fit and Healthy adult on this forum, than to get its Thinspirations on a Pro Ana Board.

          And even if one wouldn't answer to a Teens Question. Is that realy needed for someone who grew up with Google?

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          • #35
            sbhikes: I dont doubt your 'psychological analysis' of his behaviour but i think you're overstating its consequence. I was probably the same at 14-15 years of age. He isn't mentally ill (to be fair none of us have the credentials or the data to analyze that) He is disordered. In our society we have a tendency to label anything diverting from the 'normal psychosis' as disordered or ill. Odds are he'll outgrow this. Imo you're making alotta fuzz out of something thats probably just a phase

            EDIT: Also, Gadsie, if you're reading this. I'd like to apologize. Getting this much attention as the posterby for teenagers in general cant possibly be very comfortable.
            Last edited by NobleSavage; 05-29-2012, 03:20 PM.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Gadsie View Post
              My parents tell me to eat less. Now according to Everybody on this forum I should not be following that advice. I was cooking steak for dinner and my mom said (jokingly though) "are you ever gonna eat normal portions?"
              Watch this with your parents: Fat Head Weekend Bonus: Hulu, Viewer Stories

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              • #37
                Our brains aren't fully developed until our early twenties, when we gain the ability to put together the way our immediate decisions add up to short-term situations which then add up to define where our lives are headed. At 18, people make great breeders but most are not able to mentally assess their situation in its entirety as it relates to society. The brain is not physiologically done making neural pathways until this stage, usually around age 23. There's no point in not allowing teenagers here, they just need things explained in different contexts.
                Crohn's, doing SCD

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Knifegill View Post
                  The brain is not physiologically done making neural pathways until this stage, usually around age 23. There's no point in not allowing teenagers here, they just need things explained in different contexts.
                  so they really shouldn't be in school either, right?
                  my primal journal:
                  http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...Primal-Journal

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                  • #39
                    Gadsie, I apologize that this thread has turned into a conversation about you; snoops was right, I have noticed that this is a trend in general, so this was not directed specifically at you. To clarify, I do not think that the foods that Mark encourages people to eat are unhealthy for teens or infants or whatever, I think they're healthy for everyone. However, the protocol for an overweight, unhealthy adult, or even a healthy, lean adult is absolutely different from the approach that a child (and I do not mean to be condescending, but that is what a teenager is) should take. I do not think that teenagers should be banned from this forum, but I do think that in many instances (certainly not all) their motives are not quite as healthy as those of adults. On the other hand, there are also most certainly adults with disordered behaviors on this forum. While I pain for them, they are responsible for their own actions. The point of this post was to raise awareness of the fact that there are young people with anorexic and anoretic tendencies on the site and that people should be more considerate of this reality when they respond to said individuals.

                    Noblesavage, sorry to pick on you, and I think you made some great points, but anorexia is a mental illness. In fact, it is the most deadly of all mental illnesses. It is something to be taken very seriously and a danger that can very well be overlooked in a young male. It is obviously not as common among males as it is in females, but it does exist, and its rarity makes it even more dangerous, as parents and peers are less likely to suspect that a boy is anoretic (Gadsie this is not specifically about you, I'm just trying to make a point about a disease).

                    In short, be considerate and don't be ignorant.

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                    • #40
                      I don't think any member of this forum should be being named and shamed in threads. This is a great discussion and I too have a level of serious concern about younger forum members and EDs but it is a form of bullying to name names. As adults, lets continue the discussion without hurting anybody.

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                      • #41
                        People who come here with eating disorders already have them. There is likely very little we can do or say to make it worse. Probably very little we can do to make it better either. These are deeply rooted diseases with biochemical, hormonal, and psychological that require intensive therapy for most people and even then the relapse rate is horrific. People on this forum simply don't have the impact we like to think we do when it comes to something so serious.

                        Teenage brains are not fully developed, however they are making decisions that will impact them for the rest of their lives and the life experience they accumulate now is just as valuable as the experience you get later in life. So any seeds that can be implanted to guard against the low-fat, low-calorie mantra they will hear over and over may be enough to keep them from going too far astray.
                        Using low lectin/nightshade free primal to control autoimmune arthritis. (And lost 50 lbs along the way )

                        http://www.krispin.com/lectin.html

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
                          I'm a bit older than you. I've also worked with the mentally ill. What we see in Gadsie is someone who is full of so much anxiety it has turned into an obsessive compulsive disorder. What he does is he winds himself up with anxiety, then seeks to come here and ask the same question phrased just a little differently over and over and over again. He asks the same question not because he really needs an answer but because of his anxiety.
                          I agree with this evaluation of the situation. I think it's appropriate to go ahead and reassure him, even though it doesn't "work" per se. And seeing as he is now seeking help, he's likely to get the kind of help that he needs.

                          I'm not sure what responsibility we all have to Gadsie or someone like him. He's got parents. They should be taking care of him. Do they not care? Are they too busy? Is Gadsie actually older than he says? Maybe he's really 25 years old in which case we're just being roped into an older person's mental illness. In any case, whether we reassure him or not, he'll keep asking. He's very sick. He needs professional help. It might even be better for him if we made him even sicker so he seeks it, I don't know.
                          As I said, according to his own posts, he is seeking help, so that is a good thing.

                          In addition, it might be noted that it's not really fair to assert that it's possible that his parents don't care or are too busy. They might also be fraught with anxiety.

                          My husband struggles with anxiety. He has even sought professional help for it. He has -- over the years -- exhibited many of the behaviors of OCD that you describe. So does his mother and father. It's not that they don't care for DH, it's that this is their "normal." And, as far as they are concerned, they are not at all anxious. Well, they'll admit that MIL is anxious, btu she's "better now" that she's on anti-anxiety medications (but no treatment for psychological fall out).

                          When SIL was an active bulimic, she would leave bags of vomit for her family to 'find' in an attempt to get them to "help" her. She was powerless to get it on her own at some level (it wasn't until she went to university that she did or was able to), and the rest of the family (my ILs in particular, less so DH) were in complete denial about it all. It wasn't their fault; it wasn't their problem; she was the one with the problem, so why did they have to do family therapy? why couldn't she just "sort it out?"

                          It wasn't that they didn't care, it's that they were too anxious to handle the idea that they were part of the problem. And, to this day, she is an "outlier" and they are not the origin of her problems. Not that they are entirely, but she (and DH) are entirely symptomatic of their family life (we all are, btw).

                          In that household, anxiety is everything. Even the family dog was high-strung and anxious (and while a normally anxious breed in general, the reality is that this dog was the most ridiculously anxious of it's breed that i'd ever met, and I knew a breeder of this kind of dog!). The whole family is just one live wire of anxiety.

                          So, when Gadsie's mother is standing over him fussing about his portion sizes, she's probably anxious -- and not about gadsie per se, but right now it may be where she fixates (i have no idea). Or, she could be fixated in other ways, as my MIL is completely fixated on a concept of "normal" which is "right' and which is exactly how "everyone else lives" -- so there's a constant anxiety about not being right, not appearing 'right' and therefore any deviation from any norms is extremely threatening to her (enter, me! poor lady.).

                          Do they not care? Are they too busy?

                          probably not. They are probably as anxious and fixated as gadsie is. And gadsie has a private, interior life. If he's like normal teens, he probably doesn't talk to his parents often, and if he does, it's about things that will not be deep and meaningful like his anxiety and food issues.

                          For them, this is the way of life. And until gadsie gets some help with it, he won't see it as clearly as an outsider can. And, it may be that he'll see his own parents more clearly too, even though he won't be able to change them at all either (frustrating as that is).

                          So, that's my take on it.

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                          • #43
                            btw, we make new neurological pathways in the brain all the time, it goes through hormonal changes throughout life (particularly in women), and it continues to grow -- particularly so long as the brain doesn't fall into dementia (disintegration).

                            So the idea that a teen isn't making good decisions because their brains 'aren't developed' it faulty.

                            I made a lot of decisions at age 14 that I still abide by today (philosophical ones) -- that not only marked my behavior as a teen, but marks my behavior still. Yes, my perspective on it is more mature based on my experiences over the years, but the ability to make decisions on things that I valued was all ready in place.

                            I think that it is entirely possible for a young person to find a diet and lifestyle that is healthy for them. This is the age when they start to strike out into the world, separating themselves from their parents and learning who they are separate from that culture. There's going to be hits and there will be misses.

                            I don't buy the argument that teens need to be protected. At this age, I was exploring everything I possibly could about Buddhism -- against my parent's wishes and desires for me. I started to practice (meditation), and I started to study, and I still study and practice today. It was a healthy undertaking, even though there may have been lots of strange, perhaps even disordered, reasons for going into it.

                            And, of course -- as I do with anyone on the net -- I will suggest when a person needs to get help, regardless of age. I've talked to people older than me who need help with their anxiety, and suggested the same.

                            I see no need to keep teens from the board; I see no need to unnecessarily censor myself. But then, I tend to be pretty respectful of people and try to gain a sense of their context.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Ann1217 View Post
                              Noblesavage, sorry to pick on you, and I think you made some great points, but anorexia is a mental illness. In fact, it is the most deadly of all mental illnesses. It is something to be taken very seriously and a danger that can very well be overlooked in a young male. It is obviously not as common among males as it is in females, but it does exist, and its rarity makes it even more dangerous, as parents and peers are less likely to suspect that a boy is anoretic (Gadsie this is not specifically about you, I'm just trying to make a point about a disease)
                              This is where i disagree with you. Yes, conventionally anorexia is considered a mental illness.
                              Heres the definition of a mental illness (according to a free dictionary)
                              Any of various psychiatric conditions, usually characterized by impairment of an individual's normal cognitive, emotional, or behavioral functioning, and caused by physiological or psychosocial factors. Also called mental disease, mental disorder.
                              According to this definition any obsessional behaviour is a disorder. Take materialism for example. Most of us are westerners or influenced by the western dogma. Wether we like it or not that makes us obsessional materialists and so mentally ill.
                              The point im making here is that definitions are arbitrary and not neccesarily sensical. We like to create 'names' and 'disorders' for the type of behaviour that our society doesn't endorse. That way we can box em, crate, em and send them to a psychiatrist and be rid of them. Normality is nothing but the most commonly seen mental illness.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by zoebird View Post
                                So the idea that a teen isn't making good decisions because their brains 'aren't developed' it faulty.
                                Agreed entirely. In fact, the differences in wiring seen in brains of people in their teens may well be a consequence of a culture that restricts their responsibilities and decision-making powers, not a cause for it. As with strength training, your brain grows as you use it, and atrophies if you don't.

                                Besides, there are plenty of people in their twenties, thirties and beyond who are irresponsible, reckless, and poor decision-makers. Why put the arbitrary cut-off at age 18?

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