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  • #16
    Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
    I totally agree that lean, very active individuals with healthy metabolisms often do better with adding carbs. But that doesn't mean that ketosis is necessarily harmful to everyone or anyone. I know you (AP) didn't say it was but some of the carb pushers have been lately.
    And even the very active don't necessarily. Dr. Steve Phinney himself says he can cycle for about 3 hours covering some 60 miles and just not get hungry. He's in his fifties. When he was a young man and running on a sugar-burning metabolism, he'd crash out quite quickly. He did some research on bike racers years ago, and he'd assumed that they'd do better on very high carb, because this is what an earlier Swedish team had found, and consequently what everyone believed. But it turned out that (a) the Swedish researchers didn't continue the experiment for long enough for the subjects to become keto-adapted and (b) didn't know how to properly formulate a low-carb diet (they were handing out masses of lean steak, and people simply couldn't stomach it after a few days). After the requisite adaptation period, the cyclists did better on a ketogenic diet. Phinney also found the same with overweight individuals on a treadmill. At first, as he cut their carbs, they got lethargic and went slowly. After a month or so, they'd lost so much weight he loaded them up with backpacks -- to make the comparison "fair" -- and they also performed better than they had on carbs. He says they went ... and went ... and went.

    One big difference is that because you don't have to dispose of so much carbon when you run on ketones rather than glucose, you don't produce so much CO2, hence you don't need to respire so hard.

    Phinney tells both stories to Jimmy Moore in this podcast:

    479: Legendary Low-Carb Researcher Dr. Steve Phinney Says There’s An ‘Art And Science’ To Living Low-Carb | The Livin La Vida Low-Carb Show

    What Volek and Phinney make very clear in their book --

    Amazon.com: The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living: An Expert Guide to Making the Life-Saving Benefits of Carbohydrate Restriction Sustainable and Enjoyable (9780983490708): Stephen D. Phinney, Jeff S. Volek: Books

    -- is that you can do demanding activities on glucose or you can do them on ketones, but where you get stranded is if you're in-between. They say it's like thinking you could set off for a holiday island, but do just as well stopping half-way. However, you can't if there's only sea in between. I kind-of knew this, but they explain the whole phenomenon so well that I think it only really hit me after I read their explanation. The PB maintenance phase ("100-150 grams/day – Primal Blueprint Maintenance Range") is low-carb but not ketotic, but of course Mark's not telling people to try cycling for 60 miles on that protocol. "Move slowly," huh?

    The podcasts where computer guru Steve Gibson tells Leo Laporte about his experiments with VLC are interesting, too. Gibson, much to his surprise, found his work output on his stairmaster going up and up with less and less effort after he'd adapted to VLC:

    TWiT Live Specials 124 | TWiT.TV

    TWiT Live Specials 125 | TWiT.TV

    Then there's the astounding physical endurance of the fur traders and voyageurs. All done on pemmican:

    http://owndoc.com/pdf/The-fat-of-the-land.pdf

    I have to say I've dabbled with low carb before, but never actually gone fully ketogenic. However, after reading V & P's book I've become very interested in the concept. It seems like something worth trying as an experiment. I would like to see if I could have the experience of tapping huge reserves of energy. I'm sure primitive people in high latitudes must have spent much of the year in this state, as has been said on Lights Out and many other places.

    Nora Gedgaudas seems to do very well on a Paleo VLC diet:

    Primal Body-Primal Mind | Beyond The Paleo Diet

    Comment


    • #17
      Thanks for some interesting links, Lewis.

      I do agree that if you are going keto, you really should go fully, not just dabble on the border. I think a lot of the reason a lot of people say they feel cruddy on VLC is because they didn't do it consistently enough for a long enough period to really adapt to fat burning. They are still in sugar burning mode but their body isn't getting enough sugar to make it happy. So they toss the whole concept.

      Comment


      • #18
        I did VLC (under 20 g carbs per day) for well over six months. Once I started popping some potassium and the calf cramps went away, I was great. I had no problems and felt fine the entire time. Even now I'm pretty much always well under 100 g/day. It's not that I'm trying to be low carb, it's just the way I've become comfortable eating. One of the side benefits was how easy it made IF. 19 to 24 hour fasts are effortless.

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        • #19
          I'm embarking on a two week ketosis diet and need some accountability and support. Have any of you tried this before? What have been your experiences?
          I'm wondering if two weeks is long enough to become adapted. If you've been doing a high-fat diet for some time, I suppose it might be plenty of time...

          But there are so many views about this! Some would tell you that you become ketogenic every time you fast, and it only takes a few hours or a day to get there, yet others will tell you it takes weeks. I don't know who to believe! Or maybe that's a newb body versus one that's been eating real food...

          I broke my last plateau by going very low carb for three or four days a week, then hitting the sweet potatoes at the end of the week. And it's working well. Well, that and rarely eating dairy, restricting nuts to once a week, and always eating high-fat, even on high-carb days. I do that mostly to spite Chocotaco. I'm at 5'9" and down to 171 pounds now, from 215. Up to one-armed chin-ups and forty push-ups, etc. But the last ten pounds of fat were dropped, I believe, by increasing my protein to about a pound of meat a day, and doing those few VLC days a week.

          OH! Almost forgot, during my work week I basically only eat one meal a day, sometimes a few avocados or some canned fish for my first break at work, still within a 5-hour eating window. And a small box of coconut milk in the morning (toward the end of my shift) for medium-chain triglyceride ketone fun.
          Last edited by Knifegill; 05-29-2012, 05:39 PM.
          Crohn's, doing SCD

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Fletch666 View Post
            I did VLC (under 20 g carbs per day) for well over six months. Once I started popping some potassium and the calf cramps went away, I was great. I had no problems and felt fine the entire time. Even now I'm pretty much always well under 100 g/day. It's not that I'm trying to be low carb, it's just the way I've become comfortable eating. One of the side benefits was how easy it made IF. 19 to 24 hour fasts are effortless.
            Yes, I'd read on one of the links shared by someone else that potassium and magnesium are good to supplement during a ketosis diet. I haven't made it to the store yet, but if I start to feel any symptoms I definitely will add those. I tried to include potassium and magnesium rich foods on my plan as much as possible though, because I suck at swallowing pills! (Anything bigger than m&m and I just can't it down)

            Originally posted by Knifegill View Post
            I'm wondering if two weeks is long enough to become adapted. If you've been doing a high-fat diet for some time, I suppose it might be plenty of time...

            But there are so many views about this! Some would tell you that you become ketogenic every time you fast, and it only takes a few hours or a day to get there, yet others will tell you it takes weeks. I don't know who to believe! Or maybe that's a newb body versus one that's been eating real food...
            Well, I'm just committed to trying it for 2 weeks, if things are going good I may continue it for even longer! I plan to stay under 100g of carbs period at LEAST until a reach my goal weight, and possibly longer, unless I take up a rigorous sport in the process. (Which is entirely possible, I do really want to play hockey . . . )
            Healthy Bucket List:
            • Summit all of Colorado's 14-ers
            • Hike the Appalachian Trail
            • Do a real pull-up
            • Run a 5k
            • Be "Hot For Training Camp"



            Check out my journey at Outdoor Amy's Blog.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by OutdoorAmy View Post
              I suck at swallowing pills! (Anything bigger than m&m and I just can't it down)
              Most of the potassium suplements I've seen are pretty small, much smaller than M&Ms. You might find it's difficult to get enough potassium and meet your low carb goals.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                How does one know that ones's insulin sensitivity is being impacted?
                I got sugar-style rushes from eating lower-fat meat- like I had just eaten a bowl of candy. If I actually had sugar, I basically passed out- severe lightheadedness, nausea, etc.

                How do you know that increasing your carbs made you feel better mood and energy wise because ketosis was "not working" and not because you just needed more calories to fuel your intense level of physical training? It's difficult to get enough calories if you are lean and working out strenuously without adding some carb unless you are gong to eat 24 oz steaks covered in butter for every meal.
                I was eating up to 6k calories a day, mostly from fat- I was VLC/ZC for ~18mos. I was literally drinking butter and other fats. Bear in mind, I do no "cardio" type things- just an active lifestyle and lifting weights(low reps). I lost 20+ pounds of muscle in ketosis. My mood was the real tell- the instant I started eating carbs, my mood skyrocketed, and cutting carbs out drops it within days.

                I totally agree that lean, very active individuals with healthy metabolisms often do better with adding carbs. But that doesn't mean that ketosis is necessarily harmful to everyone or anyone. I know you (AP) didn't say it was but some of the carb pushers have been lately.
                Sure- ketosis is good for some, and not for other, and many people fall in between. However, we also know which groups tend to do better on each. If an 19 yo athelete feels terrible in ketosis, I'm going to tell them to eat some primal carbs. If someone is in ketosis bc they have epilespy, then they need to stay in it and figure it out. In between, it's more of a discussion.

                I do understand why people who had experience like mine are anti-ketosis, though. If I had been more prone to depression, that mood drop could have caused real problems(we're talking going from a 8 to a 4 on a 10 point scale), and in a certain cases, that insulin sensitivity could have caused issues, too. If I was driving, and reached down to grab my Zevia, and got my passengers coke instead, that swig would be bad. A contrived situation, yes, but there are risks for some.

                FWIW, I lost significant fat when I re-introduced carbs.
                Lifting Journal

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Apex Predator View Post
                  I was eating up to 6k calories a day, mostly from fat- I was VLC/ZC for ~18mos. I was literally drinking butter and other fats. Bear in mind, I do no "cardio" type things- just an active lifestyle and lifting weights(low reps). I lost 20+ pounds of muscle in ketosis. My mood was the real tell- the instant I started eating carbs, my mood skyrocketed, and cutting carbs out drops it within days.

                  Sure- ketosis is good for some, and not for other, and many people fall in between. However, we also know which groups tend to do better on each. If an 19 yo athelete feels terrible in ketosis, I'm going to tell them to eat some primal carbs. If someone is in ketosis bc they have epilespy, then they need to stay in it and figure it out. In between, it's more of a discussion.

                  I do understand why people who had experience like mine are anti-ketosis, though.
                  Oh my, Apex. That is a bit extreme. I wonder if perhaps with most of your calories coming from fat that way, you might have been suffering from a lack of protein plus other vitamins/minerals.

                  Totally agree with you about the young stud needing more carbs. I just take exception when one of them tells me I need more carbs.

                  I'm glad you found the mix that works for you.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Helen277
                    You're staying hydrated and keeping your electrolyte levels up? This seems to be where most people go wrong when attempting to eat VLC. (Well, other than eating too much protein and not enough fat.)
                    Meaning how's that?

                    Well, for example, this seems to be where the Swedish researchers went wrong back in the 60s when working with athletes. They didn't measure their performance on low carb over a long period -- but that was partly because they fed them lean steak, and after awhile people just can't stomach that, so they couldn't get people to do it for more than a few days.

                    It's not so much a percentage thing. You just work out how much protein you need to preserve lean body mass. Mark's formula, for example, would do for that (0.7 g of protein per day for every pound of lean bodymass). You eat less than 50 g of carbs per day. The rest comes from fat. So protein and carbs are more-or-less fixed, but fat fluctuates according to how many calories you eat.

                    So let's say someone needs 90g of protein. If he or she going VLC for weight-loss, then they might not eat much and that 90 g might represent 30% or more of calories as protein -- that's fine because, effectively, the fat's coming off their gut/butt. If they're at their target weight and going VLC for other reasons, then they need to eat more calories, will need to eat them as fat, and that 90 g probably represents 15 to 20% of calories. The person in the second situation (not a weight-loss person but say a sportsperson) -- someone who might be eating, say, 3000 kcal per day -- had better not try to meet that large calorific requirement by munching on lean steak.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                      Oh my, Apex. That is a bit extreme. I wonder if perhaps with most of your calories coming from fat that way, you might have been suffering from a lack of protein plus other vitamins/minerals.

                      Totally agree with you about the young stud needing more carbs. I just take exception when one of them tells me I need more carbs.

                      I'm glad you found the mix that works for you.
                      It's possible that vitamins and minerals may have been lacking, though I added in carbs as white rice and potatoes mostly, which aren't exactly nutritional powerhouses. Protein wasn't an issue-often 200+ g a day, though now with carbs I can use less than half of that and still gain muscle.

                      Ketosis is great for some people, not for others- I'm glad people find what works for them.
                      Lifting Journal

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                      • #26
                        I think short-term ketosis diets are great for losing weight, although I would be concerned about gut bacteria dying off in the absence of fiber. Of course you'd be killing off any bad bacteria too, so you could make the most of it by treating it as a 'detox'. If I were you I'd do a 100% clean diet for 2 weeks and take lots of activated charcoal tablets (or anything else you think works well as a 'cleanser'). Then make sure to add back veggie carbs gradually afterwards, and take a probiotic.

                        You can never fully kick the carb addiction, there's always a danger of succumbing to cravings since food is everywhere and our natural instinct tells us to binge just in case the food goes away. I find the key is to replace it with a different addiction that has more positive effects. Runner's high, workaholism, DIY or hobby obsession - these are all good addictions to try!
                        Start weight: 238 lbs (March 2012)
                        Current weight: 205 lbs (July 2012)
                        Loss so far: 33 lbs!!!
                        WOE: Primal + IF
                        Movements: Hiking, sprinting.
                        Goal: to see my abs some time in 2013!

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                          Oh my, Apex. That is a bit extreme. I wonder if perhaps with most of your calories coming from fat that way, you might have been suffering from a lack of protein plus other vitamins/minerals.

                          Totally agree with you about the young stud needing more carbs. I just take exception when one of them tells me I need more carbs.

                          I'm glad you found the mix that works for you.
                          Well, I agree with you except that we're not all young studs! I'm a woman, almost 35, and definitely not running on the high testosterone levels that some of the young guys around here are. However, I think the difference is that I am also highly active and I have never been obese or had any other indicators of metabolic syndrome (my lucky disease of civilization is celiac). I've also never been a sugar binge type. And I don't have anything like epilepsy that is markedly improved by going VLC.

                          I also think that we tend to say "highly active" and are unclear what kind of activity we're discussing. There's a big difference between an endurance activity such as cycling and lifting, HIIT, or sprinting. There's some good evidence that training on lower carbs can give endurance athletes some advantage on race day (train low, race high). But for other kinds of activity, the body can't tap into the fat stores quickly enough, and unless there's enough down time between workouts to replenish glycogen stores more slowly through gluconeogenesis, that athlete will likely need more carbs to replenish their stock more quickly.

                          I have no problem with respecting other people's success on VLC. But I find that for every "carb pusher" there's also a VLC fanatic who insists to me repeatedly that I must have somehow been doing it wrong when I never adapted despite a couple of months trying (and yes, I ate loads of fat, I had sufficient protein, and I drink lots of water and eat salt).

                          I'm unwilling to continue to feel crappy for a year or more on someone's assertion that I will eventually magically feel better when the simple solution for me is to include primal carbs in reasonable quantities. My health markers are great, I continue to lean out, I look and feel vital and energetic, and I can comfortably fast when I want, so why would I suffer through a year of hell (physically, mentally, and emotionally) when I can just eat some carbs and be healthy and happy now?

                          This isn't specifically directed at you, Paleobird. I know you respect that not everyone eats your way. But I do sort of take exception at the idea that only the "young studs" can eat carbs.
                          “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

                          Owly's Journal

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Owly View Post
                            I also think that we tend to say "highly active" and are unclear what kind of activity we're discussing. There's a big difference between an endurance activity such as cycling and lifting, HIIT, or sprinting.
                            That seems to be what Dr. Phinney found with the racing cyclists.

                            The untrained individuals he had on the treadmill did better after keto-adaptation, but the cyclists were effectively the same before and after -- except as regarded sprinting. So their VO2 max and time to exhaustion were unaffected by the change of diet, but after keto-adaptation, they were less inclined to put on a burst of speed to catch a traffic light.

                            KGNU-How On Earth, Show: Exercise and Low Carb Diets (with Stephen Phinney)

                            Interesting stuff. And discussed in more detail in that link than I've heard before. It's a shame there hasn't been much more work done on this.

                            And in a sense done by Phinney "in the dark". He used an "Innuit Diet" as his ketogenic diet for the cyclists. But since no Innuit now eat in the traditional way, he had to extrapolate to the content by looking at the records of the Stefansson experiment where Stefansson ate "like an Innuit". But the records didn't record what Stefansson was eating in any detail -- only what his macronutrient ratios were.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by OutdoorAmy View Post
                              I'm embarking on a two week ketosis diet and need some accountability and support. Have any of you tried this before? What have been your experiences?

                              I'll be blogging about it on my primal/paleo lifestyle blog outdooramy.blospot.com . . .

                              I'd love to get feedback and comments to help encourage me through it. Especially since I'm such a carb addict. LOL. (I say that in the same way alcoholics say they are still alcoholics even if they are sober).

                              I've been stuck on a plateau for a while now and I'm hoping that this two weeks will be enough to kick start my weight loss again. I am starting this evening with a 24 hour fast.
                              takes 3 - 6 weeks to become adapted...
                              Optimum Health powered by Actualized Self-Knowledge.

                              Predator not Prey
                              Paleo Ketogenic Lifestyle

                              CW 315 | SW 506
                              Current Jeans 46 | Starting Jeans 66


                              Contact me: quelsen@gmail.com

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Knifegill View Post
                                I'm wondering if two weeks is long enough to become adapted. If you've been doing a high-fat diet for some time, I suppose it might be plenty of time...

                                But there are so many views about this! Some would tell you that you become ketogenic every time you fast, and it only takes a few hours or a day to get there, yet others will tell you it takes weeks. I don't know who to believe! Or maybe that's a newb body versus one that's been eating real food...

                                I broke my last plateau by going very low carb for three or four days a week, then hitting the sweet potatoes at the end of the week. And it's working well. Well, that and rarely eating dairy, restricting nuts to once a week, and always eating high-fat, even on high-carb days. I do that mostly to spite Chocotaco. I'm at 5'9" and down to 171 pounds now, from 215. Up to one-armed chin-ups and forty push-ups, etc. But the last ten pounds of fat were dropped, I believe, by increasing my protein to about a pound of meat a day, and doing those few VLC days a week.

                                OH! Almost forgot, during my work week I basically only eat one meal a day, sometimes a few avocados or some canned fish for my first break at work, still within a 5-hour eating window. And a small box of coconut milk in the morning (toward the end of my shift) for medium-chain triglyceride ketone fun.
                                there is a huge difference in entering ketosis and becoming a ketogenic mammal.

                                adapting means that your biologic imperative is to burn fat to create your glucose storage needs, entering ketossi means that you are temporarily out of the exogenous glucose for fuel
                                Optimum Health powered by Actualized Self-Knowledge.

                                Predator not Prey
                                Paleo Ketogenic Lifestyle

                                CW 315 | SW 506
                                Current Jeans 46 | Starting Jeans 66


                                Contact me: quelsen@gmail.com

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