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  • Hey, Ribbons -- Just checking in to see how you're doing today. Remember that you deserve to be healthy. You deserve to be happy. For you to be healthy and happy, you have to fuel your body with food. You can do it!
    F, 44 years old, 111.8 lbs, 4 feet 11.5 inches (yes, that half inch matters!)

    **1st place sparring, AAU TKD regional qualifier, 2/15/15 - It's damn good to hit like a girl!**

    **First-ever 5K race 11/28/13: 37 minutes, 18+ seconds, no stopping**

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    • Originally posted by Ribbons View Post
      I think I've binged enough. I want to do this without putting on weight, so it's probably better that I just increase my cals slowly.
      Human dietary needs aver extremely variable. Of course it is better that your increase your food, but I am sure the reason you got into this state is because you have not binged enough. Like I said above, binging is natural and healthy.
      Haha it was random; I couldn't think of a name and I saw a ribbon on my desk (I don't even wear ribbons).
      Good choice of name, anyway!
      Whatever it is, if I ate it it would feel more like I'm relieving an addiction to it than actually enjoying it. Sorta like smoking a cigarette for someone who's addicted to them.
      What makes smoking additive is that there are chemicals in tobacco that cause a similar effect in the brain to things like eating, that feel very good indeed. The difference between smoking and eating is that you need to eat to live. You do not need to smoke to live, it just latches onto the same sort of thing. It is good to crave food and is not an addiction, it is a sign of things working normally.

      I am not encouraging you to smoke or anything, but for you it would be totally fine if you did, if it encouraged you to eat. It takes decades for smoking to do you any real harm, whereas if you carry on in your present anorexic state you most likely die before next year. People can find it makes them feel calmer, which can vastly outweigh the long term health risks when people have very serious immediate problems. Tobacco is actually one of the least problematic addictions, having less effects on your mental health that almost anything else, including caffeine. Least problematic withdrawal symptoms too, only really making people irritable.
      Last edited by billp; 06-08-2012, 03:59 AM.

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      • Originally posted by zoebird View Post
        weight loss isn't relevant at this point.

        what is relevant is your mental health, and the physical health along with it since your mental state is leading you to harm your physical health, and therefore you need to get help for your mental health.
        I know but if I put on weight then that's a big discouragement from eating more.
        Originally posted by billp View Post
        Food doesn't just turn to fat. I have been eating unlimited meat, fat and green veg for nine months and I have used every loop on my belt, from the outermost to now the innermost. Of course if I actually starved myself like you have been doing then that would bias me to putting on fat, because that is a famine response. This is one of the many reasons why it is so bad to starve yourself.
        I know but it feels like it's turning into fat because food makes your stomach look bigger and you feel heavier.
        In your current anorexic state, if you moved out of home you would probably be dead in two months. Something to think about after you are not anorexic any more.
        Haha like a week ago I was imagining moving into my own house and not keeping any food in it and that seemed like the ideal situation to be in because no one could make me eat and I wouldn't be able to binge. It didn't even occur to me then that I could die from that.
        I think it is funny how you value your own life less than having to repeat yr 12
        No, I just don't think I need immediate help. If I was dying I'd happily drop out of school.
        It is better than nothing but you need real medical attention right away. Like someone said a few pages back, would you be doing this if you had cancer? What you have has a similar death rate to cancer and in your current untreated state will probably kill you before New Year.
        It's not the same. I can think clearly enough to know whether I'm dying or not (and I'm definitely not!) And cancer can't get better on its own or just by changing your diet.
        Although it many not seem like it, this is why you need help so urgently. You are describing a symptom of mental illness. People who are not mentally ill agree with things based on whether it is right or wrong, not fluttering between based on a funny interaction of mood and food. That is mental degeneration in progress, caused by acute starvation.
        Does "mental degeneration" mean that I'm losing my ability to think rationally? Is that why I keep changing my mind?
        Go weigh yourself then, and tell us. No one here knows you. At the moment people here are assuming the worst because they don't have any hard data.
        I can't weigh myself now because I feel very fat and I've probably put on weight so I'll do it in a couple of days. But I can assure you that I'm still fat.
        Counting calories is very dangerous, as it interrupts the body's normal hungry-feeding cycle and prompts a temporary autistic state obsessed with numbers.
        That's why I'm not (purposely) doing it anymore
        That's because I only just invented it! I have been trying to understand Anorexia for a while, as I think what is commonly believed about it (regarding wanting to lose weight) is utterly contradicted by the historical evidence. I started thinking about something I have been calling Anorexia Realis months ago. I think because everyone is starting from the wrong principles about treating Anorexia (body image, weight loss etc.) it makes the treatment much less effective. Knowing what is really going on and not just what the victim has latched onto should make it more treatable. Of course the only real treatment is to eat lots and lots for a sustained period until the obsessive thoughts go and sanity returns - which it would totally do if you ate and ate.
        Haha well done for inventing it
        You could write a book or something.
        To get out of this you will need to binge for about two continuous weeks.
        That seem a bit excessive... Why two weeks?
        Only toxic if you eat it all the time.
        I eat under 10g of fructose a day because apparently that's the "safe" limit.
        After the way you have treated yourself for the last three weeks, you will definitely need a lot of sugar in your diet for a while. Once you are no longer anorexic you can scale back on it. You will find that most of the people here are eating sugar after extreme exercise or physical trauma (i.e. like you).
        How could sugar possibly be good for me? I'd just get addicted to it again.
        I think your anorexic recovery is going to involve lots of carbs
        Why??

        Originally posted by billp View Post
        You probably do have amnesia. Alcoholics get that too - the alcohol interferes with their metabolism so severely that their brain function is gradually more and more clouded. Not being able to remember stuff is new for you, isn't it? And you still hope to do your mid-year exams! No chance. Do you know what that amnesia is? It is death, creeping silently up on you. You must start eating immediately. You must seek immediate medical help.
        I can't tell if you're serious or you're just trying to scare me.
        I don't actually believe you about it not being possible to postpone exams. I don't believe you have actually asked anyone if that was possible in cases of medical emergency.
        They said it at the start of the year to everyone. You can't postpone exams because it gives you an unfair advantage. You could easily find the exams online.
        I don't believe you If you were willing to go you would have gone already. You have ample reason to. There is nothing about having exams next week that prevents you going to the doctor now, in fact if you want to do those exams you are much more likely to be able to do so if you get help now. Next week you will be in even worse shape (you are already getting amnesia!) so I think it is likely you will find another excuse not to go.
        I don't want to go but I will if I need to. And there's not much anyone could do for me in less than a week so I may as well go after exams.

        Originally posted by JackieKessler View Post
        Hey, Ribbons -- Just checking in to see how you're doing today. Remember that you deserve to be healthy. You deserve to be happy. For you to be healthy and happy, you have to fuel your body with food. You can do it!
        Thank you
        I'm ok today . I had like 500-700 cals today and I'm having conflicting thoughts about whether that's bad because it's too much or because it's not enough. But I skipped dinner anyway because I wasn't sure.

        Comment


        • I am not encouraging you to smoke or anything, but for you it would be totally fine if you did, if it encouraged you to eat. It takes decades for smoking to do you any real harm, whereas if you carry on in your present anorexic state you most likely die before next year. People can find it makes them feel calmer, which can vastly outweigh the long term health risks when people have very serious immediate problems. Tobacco is actually one of the least problematic addictions, having less effects on your mental health that almost anything else, including caffeine. Least problematic withdrawal symptoms too, only really making people irritable.
          Hahaha you say you're not encouraging me to smoke and then you tell me why it would be ok for me. Last year I smoked a bit (only a couple of times) and I actually felt the effects of nicotine addiction very quickly but it went away after a couple of days of not smoking.

          Comment


          • Yeah, smoking is really addictive. I have smoked on and off. Two cigarettes are enough to make me crave it and lead to a five packet addiction - after which I stop myself by sheer will-power - I just expect it to hurt for a few days, then I am over it.

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            • Don't smoke Ribbons, it's terrible for you! It will make you smell very bad! Smoking suppresses appetite, it doesn't stimulate it! That's why all the scrawny fashion models smoke. But then will be wrinkly and haggard when they're 50, so we will have the last laugh!

              Comment


              • Another idea Ribbons. I think it is really important for you to break your cycle now, of stress and under-eating and calories. I don't know where you are, but I have been in Melbourne at this time of the year (mid-winter) and it is so depressing - cold and wet. Is it like that where you are? I was thinking maybe you could go for a trip somewhere dryer and hotter, maybe with whichever ever of your parents you feel closest to (you definitely shouldn't go alone and I bet your father would take two weeks off if you explained and asked him). Cairns is lovely at this time of the year. I really do think your exams are a dead loss in your present state and you should get signed off sick from them as soon as possible. There is nothing more important than your health.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Ann1217 View Post
                  Don't smoke Ribbons, it's terrible for you! It will make you smell very bad! Smoking suppresses appetite, it doesn't stimulate it! That's why all the scrawny fashion models smoke. But then will be wrinkly and haggard when they're 50, so we will have the last laugh!
                  It's not terrible, it is slightly bad. Starving is terrible. But yes, the risk of it suppressing her appetite further makes it probably a poor idea.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Ann1217 View Post
                    Don't smoke Ribbons, it's terrible for you! It will make you smell very bad! Smoking suppresses appetite, it doesn't stimulate it! That's why all the scrawny fashion models smoke. But then will be wrinkly and haggard when they're 50, so we will have the last laugh!
                    I don't smoke, I only did it a few times. I don't think it actually suppresses your appetite though, I think it's just a distraction from food.
                    Originally posted by billp View Post
                    Another idea Ribbons. I think it is really important for you to break your cycle now, of stress and under-eating and calories. I don't know where you are, but I have been in Melbourne at this time of the year (mid-winter) and it is so depressing - cold and wet. Is it like that where you are? I was thinking maybe you could go for a trip somewhere dryer and hotter, maybe with whichever ever of your parents you feel closest to (you definitely shouldn't go alone and I bet your father would take two weeks off if you explained and asked him). Cairns is lovely at this time of the year. I really do think your exams are a dead loss in your present state and you should get signed off sick from them as soon as possible. There is nothing more important than your health.
                    Yeah it's always cold and wet but I can't just randomly go on a holiday during school time. Seriously, I'm not about to die or anything. I'm sure I can cope with exams if I push myself enough.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Ribbons View Post
                      I know but if I put on weight then that's a big discouragement from eating more.
                      It doesn't matter about your weight at the moment, unless it is too low. What matters is your mental health and eating more
                      I know but it feels like it's turning into fat because food makes your stomach look bigger and you feel heavier.
                      That's called dysmorphophobia. You know its not true so it doesn't matter what you feel.
                      Haha like a week ago I was imagining moving into my own house and not keeping any food in it and that seemed like the ideal situation to be in because no one could make me eat and I wouldn't be able to binge. It didn't even occur to me then that I could die from that.
                      I know. That is why it is so important that you be with your family and share your feelings with them, because they need to tell you too eat, however unpleasant that may be. You would die on your own in your present state, I think rather quickly.
                      No, I just don't think I need immediate help. If I was dying I'd happily drop out of school.
                      500-700 calories a day is dying. Dropping out of school is only an option, but an important one I think. The really urgent one is getting to the doctor.
                      It's not the same. I can think clearly enough to know whether I'm dying or not (and I'm definitely not!) And cancer can't get better on its own or just by changing your diet.
                      From where you are now it has a pretty similar death rate.
                      Does "mental degeneration" mean that I'm losing my ability to think rationally? Is that why I keep changing my mind?
                      YES
                      I can't weigh myself now because I feel very fat and I've probably put on weight so I'll do it in a couple of days. But I can assure you that I'm still fat.
                      How you feel doesn't have anything to do with standing on the scales. You just stand on them and look. You are the weight you are. Knowing it would be useful to you and wouldn't alter your weight. Would only take a moment.
                      That's why I'm not (purposely) doing it anymore
                      Good. It is really important that you avoid counting or measuring food. It is directly connected to what is wrong with you. You need to eat until you are physically full.
                      Haha well done for inventing it
                      You could write a book or something.
                      I think so too! I just started a draft on my blog but it is only a few lines long. It takes quite a lot of work to flesh something out into a whole book. But i definitely think I should write one. Everyone should these days if they want to be taken seriously. Lulu means you can publish anything you like and Amazon will stock it, printing off one copy every time someone buys one.
                      That seem a bit excessive... Why two weeks?
                      It is based on about how long Gadsie took once he started eating like mad. He remained in a highly anxious anorexic state for some time after, then suddenly he was all "I Feel Great!". How long it will take you I just don't know.
                      I eat under 10g of fructose a day because apparently that's the "safe" limit.
                      Eh? I never heard of any safe limit for fructose. You can eat as much fruit as you like. You aren't allergic to it, at least as far as I know.
                      How could sugar possibly be good for me? I'd just get addicted to it again.
                      It is good for you. YOu are suffering form acute Anorexia Nervosa. You are going to need to eat more, and initially you will need a lot of sugar because of the amount of muscle and bodily repair you will need to do after sucha long period of starvation. If you eat primal/paleo type foods as well you will be able to tell when you no longer need it as you will stop craving it. I recommend Haagen Dazs Vanilla Icecream as a natural and clean source of sugar and cream with no HFCS or veg oil.
                      I think your anorexic recovery is going to involve lots of carbs
                      Why??
                      Because you are drastically short on all nutrition and they are very easy to digest. Rice with butter, meat and veg would be ideal for you. It will take a few meals before your stomach is used to routinely having food again.
                      I can't tell if you're serious or you're just trying to scare me.
                      That was a serious point. And you should be scared. I have read your old post and I see a marked decline. You appear to have an increasing number of cognitive issues which are getting worse. End-stage alcoholics get something similar, as do terminal cancer patients and the very old. It is a really bad sign.
                      They said it at the start of the year to everyone. You can't postpone exams because it gives you an unfair advantage. You could easily find the exams online.
                      They don't want people to do that, but that doesn't mean that you really can't. You would be surprised at how flexible these things are in reality. People make adjustments - making adjustments is part of being adult. I went though a number of very unpleasant civil court cases recently, and I was surprised how flexible the underlying system was, whatever the rules were meant to say. You have rock-solid medical grounds for special treatment.
                      I don't want to go but I will if I need to. And there's not much anyone could do for me in less than a week so I may as well go after exams.
                      Just go now, or first thing tomorrow morning (it being pretty late now). It is really important.

                      Comment


                      • Well fwiw a big turn in the road for me has happened through exploring the Ray Peat approach to paleo. It's higher carb and it's as dogmatic as paleo that "I must eat vegetables and meat to be healthy". I'm eating more fruit and drinking milk for the first time in decades, am feeling much better and am finally happy.

                        Maybe you need a fresh perspective:
                        Ray Peat Eating Guidelines : Semi Low-Carb Plans Forum : Active Low-Carber Forums

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Ribbons View Post
                          Yeah it's always cold and wet but I can't just randomly go on a holiday during school time. Seriously, I'm not about to die or anything. I'm sure I can cope with exams if I push myself enough.
                          Yes, you are probably not about to die (although you could have a heart attack, that happens to anorexics) but you are likely to die if you carry on doing what you are doing, which you give every indication of being determined to do. The trouble is that the time before you get so thin they strap you to a hospital bed, something probably two or three months away yet, does terrible and often permanent damage to your body and health, setting the stage for much worse health in later life, including osteoporosis, poor fertility, early menopause, bad teeth, heart disease, liver and kidney damage and on-going mental health problems. It is a really bad idea to let things get so far that they have to force feed you (where you are heading) and even then, in many cases force-feeding comes too late and the patient dies.

                          Pushing yourself, in your currently starved state, will not do you the blindest bit of good, as the cognitive side effects will prevent you from being able to concentrate sufficiently or remembering what you need to know in the exam. Frankly there is no loss to you and everything to be gained in getting signed off sick from them. If I was your doctor I wouldn't hesitate to immediately sign you off sick for two months.

                          Climate makes a big difference to mental health problems. I think you would find a hot dry climate very beneficial. I definitely think your condition is serious enough to merit it. I don't think it is a coincidence that you got sucked into this in the middle of winter. Given the seriousness of your situation, as long as your parents are aware of it I think there is every reason to think they would be willing to take you away, especially as it is really important you break the cycle. Renting a cheap house for a few weeks in Cairns or wherever (Darwin? The Mediterranean? Bali? Toowoomba even?) is not cripplingly expensive if you keep costs down. You really need a change of scene.
                          Last edited by billp; 06-08-2012, 06:59 AM.

                          Comment


                          • billip, seriously, have you wondered why members back off commenting, have you thought about the effect of contributing to the microanalysis or response to the attention seeking?

                            Ribbons, you are clearly articulate and presumably smart and not about to expire

                            billip, are you ribbons and gadsie? are are you fuelling the drama to advance your own 'research"

                            seriously, ribbons, get off the forum if you exist and get a ne preoccupation than seeking attention here...as yiu say, you are not about to starve and clearly are not interested in primal as opposed to the attention

                            billip...creepy

                            Comment


                            • Fair enough, amberlee. Am quite tired today so am not at my most clear-headed myself. Point taken.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by billp View Post
                                Yes, you are probably not about to die (although you could have a heart attack, that happens to anorexics) but you are likely to die if you carry on doing what you are doing, which you give every indication of being determined to do. The trouble is that the time before you get so thin they strap you to a hospital bed, something probably two or three months away yet, does terrible and often permanent damage to your body and health, setting the stage for much worse health in later life, including osteoporosis, poor fertility, early menopause, bad teeth, heart disease, liver and kidney damage and on-going mental health problems. It is a really bad idea to let things get so far that they have to force feed you (where you are heading) and even then, in many cases force-feeding comes too late and the patient dies.

                                Pushing yourself, in your currently starved state, will not do you the blindest bit of good, as the cognitive side effects will prevent you from being able to concentrate sufficiently or remembering what you need to know in the exam. Frankly there is no loss to you and everything to be gained in getting signed off sick from them. If I was your doctor I wouldn't hesitate to immediately sign you off sick for two months.

                                Climate makes a big difference to mental health problems. I think you would find a hot dry climate very beneficial. I definitely think your condition is serious enough to merit it. I don't think it is a coincidence that you got sucked into this in the middle of winter. Given the seriousness of your situation, as long as your parents are aware of it I think there is every reason to think they would be willing to take you away, especially as it is really important you break the cycle. Renting a cheap house for a few weeks in Cairns or wherever (Darwin? The Mediterranean? Bali? Toowoomba even?) is not cripplingly expensive if you keep costs down. You really need a change of scene.
                                They were pretty clear about how you either do the exams or you don't, there's no postponing unfortunately.
                                But I might go camping in a few weeks so that'll be a change of scene
                                I've hardly gone anywhere in the last few weeks.
                                Originally posted by amberlee View Post
                                seriously, ribbons, get off the forum if you exist and get a ne preoccupation than seeking attention here...as yiu say, you are not about to starve and clearly are not interested in primal as opposed to the attention

                                billip...creepy
                                Yes I do exist. And obviously I wouldn't have come to this forum if I wasn't interested in primal and I just wanted attention; I'd go to "pro-ana" sites, which I'm not into btw. And I don't think billp is creepy at all Apart from constantly telling me I'm dying he's been very helpful.
                                Originally posted by homunculus
                                sounds like me... I've become obsessed with nutrition as well and when I'm not studying I constantly research it (or waste time on tumblr too) but now I really want to stop this obsessive calorie counting, I've lost weight but my hair started falling out and my skin is horrible... I think I'd rather have the extra few pounds, nice hair and skin and being able not to obsess about everything I eat :< I used intermittent fasting constantly lying to myself that I was being healthy this way but I ended up barely eating at alll... Health is more important than weight, and if we eat healthy and nourish our bodies then the weight will come off itself... without the bad side effects that come with starving yourself which I really regret now and I hope you can stop obsessing like that too :<
                                Try to stop recording your calories anywhere and then you won't obsess as much. Well that's what has worked a bit for me anyway.

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