Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Metabolic Advantage

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Forgotmylastusername View Post
    *waits for completely irrelevant Rosedale or Mercola link that implies I was somehow doing it all wrong*
    hahahaha, that is the predominant style! the speech from low carber [insert name here] without comment.

    js290, i'm still wondering how you reconcile the fact that your "superior fuel" - fat, which generates more ATP when it's oxidized - cycles far slower than burning glycogen. more ATP, sure, but doesn't go quickly. many of us, and i'd say most in the athletic and strength communities have found a distinct advantage to using your "inferior fuel." are we all just one mercola/rosedale speech short of the truth?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Owly View Post
      IMO, that's the whole point to our bodies being able to use either type of fuel. Flexibility seems more useful than being primarily carb or keto adapted. Fasting and cycling intake keeps both pathways functioning effectively to be used as needed, which seems like the whole point to us evolving with both fuelling pathways available to us.
      Yes exactly!

      When I was hiking the Pacific Crest Trail I was doing 25-30 miles a day. I had to eat constantly. As long as the trail wasn't going up hill I was eating as I walked. As soon as the trail went up hill I breathed too heavily to eat but my stomach would start growling. I had completely lost any flexibility at all.

      I regained it with low carb. It was the only thing I could do since my flexibility was totally hosed on the high carb diet I ate on the trail.

      I wondered recently if it was all caused by bad oils as Chaco would say, but actually it wasn't. I ate cookies that had butter, not oil, on the ingredient list. I ate hummus to which I added olive oil, if I remembered to. I ate cheese. And to all this I ate tons of grape nuts with full-fat powdered milk, pudding with full-fat powdered milk, pasta, dried fruit and nuts, and non-fat candy like gummy bears (because they don't melt.) I did have some bad oils in crackers, but it wasn't the overwhelming ingredient in my diet. The overwhelming ingredient was wheat and sugar.

      With my metabolic flexibility restored, I feel so much better. I feel like I have an edge over the old me. Next time I do something so extremely endurance-oriented I am going to eat so much better, much less constantly, and I'll bet I can get up to a 40 mile day in there somewhere. If I'm not too old next time I have that kind of free time.
      Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by js290 View Post
        It's a bandwagon fallacy to just say that's how all the other athletes fuel.
        This made me LOL, especially after you literally spent one of your last posts "bandwagon fallacy-ing" with your Lindsey Vonn example. You really are all over the place.


        Originally posted by js290
        Yes, in someone properly trained, burning fat can be glycogen sparing.
        Stop with your strawmans. Nowhere in this thread did we say this wasn't true. The point you are avoiding is that, even in these "properly" trained athletes, it comes at the cost of performance (especially when measuring explosive capabilities).

        I literally have dozens of studies showing this to be the case but posting them here for you to come back with dogmatic pro-VLC rhetoric would give me about the same satisfaction as slamming my foot in the door.
        http://stackingplates.com/

        Comment


        • Originally posted by iniQuity View Post
          There are two examples of people that seem to eat a more VLC paleo diet but are still pretty active, Ido Portal: portaldo - YouTube and one of his pupils, John Sapinoso: thejsapblog - YouTube
          Just to follow up on this, coincidentally Ido today posted the results of bloodwork after following a paleo diet for more than 15 years. He professed himself a "full time carnivore" that "eats animal proteins at least 5 times a day" (he also trains quite a lot every day though) so I took the opportunity to ask what he'd think his carb average is. He said probably around 75g/day but sometimes as low as 20g. I didn't ask further (others did ask for a daily menu, so I'll get back to this if he does post it, and if anyone cares...) but I'd infer that it's mostly leafy greens, and maybe some post workout fruit or starch. I want to ask if he eats what I'd consider VLC on purpose (like, he thinks its superior) or because he doesn't have much of a taste for starch/fruit or it if's a result of many years of habit.

          Note: I don't play around with websites that tell you the contents of foods, so I don't know if his diet would have to be strictly leafy greens (plus meat) or if there's still room for peppers, onions, cabbage, etc. I'm going to personally drop the rice and potatoes for a while, but keep up the other veggies and see how it works out for me. Not just because of Ido (though I can't deny he does inspire me in other ways, so it does make sense to imitate his diet) but because I'm pretty sure I'm slightly over-eating, or at the very least, constantly eating at maintenance, but I want to drop about 10-15lbs, so I need to cut energy from wherever and it may be easiest to do so from starches (since I'm very likely to eat them alongside fat!) I will definitely still eat some, but will try to isolate them or eat them with lean protein sources and limit the fat... like I should have all along.
          I used to seriously post here, now I prefer to troll.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by DeeDub View Post
            I read somewhere that a 175 pound male will burn about 3500 calories running a marathon. That's about 1700 calories an hour. I thought I read elsewhere (on this site, I think) that the body can only burn about 800 calories from stored fat in a day. That would be about 35 calories an hour.

            Do I have those numbers approximately correct? If so, that would seem to be quite a deficit. How would the VLC athlete overcome that?
            I have no idea, but I know that my partner could not do what he does on VLC (<50g). He often has to do his long run on a work day--he has a moving and delivery business, so he works a physical job all day. On a day with a long run plus work, at his size (6'3" and a pretty lean 230 right now) he needs about 6000 calories to fuel. He doesn't have a lot of fat reserves to mobilize, and he has to maintain muscle mass to do his job. In his case, eating carbs is pretty much essential to athletic performance.
            “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

            Owly's Journal

            Comment


            • Originally posted by jakey View Post

              js290, i'm still wondering how you reconcile the fact that your "superior fuel" - fat, which generates more ATP when it's oxidized - cycles far slower than burning glycogen. more ATP, sure, but doesn't go quickly. many of us, and i'd say most in the athletic and strength communities have found a distinct advantage to using your "inferior fuel."
              Burning glycogen is anaerobic (Cori cycle/Glycogenolysis). Burning glucose and fatty acids is aerobic (TCA/Krebs cycle). While the byproducts of anaerobic metabolism feeds into aerobic metabolism, they are two different pathways.

              Originally posted by jakey View Post
              are we all just one mercola/rosedale speech short of the truth?
              If you stop equivocating, maybe you can understand what the "truth" looks like? Keep trying, though.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by StackingPlates View Post
                Stop with your strawmans. Nowhere in this thread did we say this wasn't true.
                Strawman? Do you even know what that is? Where I have claimed that someone on this thread said the above quoted statement was false?

                Originally posted by StackingPlates View Post
                The point you are avoiding is that, even in these "properly" trained athletes, it comes at the cost of performance (especially when measuring explosive capabilities).
                Yes, and you seem to keep avoiding explaining what the "cost of performance" is. It'd be great to know what the "cost of performance" is at a biochemical level. How is it possible to perform worse on a better fuel? Maybe fat isn't a better fuel? If so, how so given it produces more ATP? Maybe glucose is a better fuel? If so, how so, given it doesn't produce byproducts that are also useable as efficient fuels?

                Originally posted by StackingPlates View Post
                I literally have dozens of studies showing this to be the case but posting them here for you to come back with dogmatic pro-VLC rhetoric would give me about the same satisfaction as slamming my foot in the door.
                Are you really afraid to cite your sources because of me? Or, is it more likely you're not really sure what your sources are really saying? If you are correct, what difference does it make if I'm the one being dogmatic?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by js290 View Post
                  Burning glycogen is anaerobic (Cori cycle/Glycogenolysis). Burning glucose and fatty acids is aerobic (TCA/Krebs cycle). While the byproducts of anaerobic metabolism feeds into aerobic metabolism, they are two different pathways.
                  yup, they're two cycles, and one also feeds the other. but one is still faster than the other, despite how much ATP is generated. that's why doing intense exercise on empty glycogen tanks can feel like shit.

                  Comment


                  • How does the pyruvate stuff in powerlifting fit into all this?
                    My chocolatey Primal journey

                    Unusual food recipes (plus chocolate) blog

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by js290 View Post
                      How is it possible to perform worse on a better fuel? Maybe fat isn't a better fuel? If so, how so given it produces more ATP? Maybe glucose is a better fuel? If so, how so, given it doesn't produce byproducts that are also useable as efficient fuels?

                      Are you really afraid to cite your sources because of me? Or, is it more likely you're not really sure what your sources are really saying? If you are correct, what difference does it make if I'm the one being dogmatic?
                      Saying that fat produces more ATP is a gross oversimplification. Very analogous to saying matter of fact that "VLC is better" so it doesn't surprise me to read that coming from you.

                      ATP production is largely variable and dependent upon the type of exercise being performed, the length of the activity, and how intense that activity is. There are several metabolic pathways that can be used to produce ATP (high level - CHO oxidation is typically used for HIIT and FAT oxidation for lower intensity activities). This has been the basic argument the whole time.

                      No, I'm not afraid of citing sources, but I like to provide context with my links instead of simply posting up a link with no explanation added, like you have a history of doing. I'm not in the mood to do multiple research reviews when I feel that the burden of proof is on you as you are the lone dissenting person in this conversation.
                      http://stackingplates.com/

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by sakura_girl View Post
                        How does the pyruvate stuff in powerlifting fit into all this?
                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycolysis
                        Glycolysis (from glycose, an older term[1] for glucose + -lysis degradation) is the metabolic pathway that converts glucose C6H12O6, into pyruvate, CH3COCOO− + H+. The free energy released in this process is used to form the high-energy compounds ATP (adenosine triphosphate), FADH2 and NADH (reduced nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide).
                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cori_cycle
                        Muscular activity requires energy, which is provided by the breakdown of glycogen in the skeletal muscles. The breakdown of glycogen, a process known as glycogenolysis, releases glucose in the form of glucose-6-phosphate (G-6-P). G-6-P is readily fed into glycolysis, a process that provides ATP to the muscle cells as an energy source. During muscular activity, the store of ATP needs to be constantly replenished. When the supply of oxygen is sufficient, this energy comes from feeding pyruvate, one product of glycolysis, into the Krebs cycle.

                        When oxygen supply is insufficient, typically during intense muscular activity, energy must be released through anaerobic respiration. Anaerobic respiration converts pyruvate to lactate by lactate dehydrogenase. Most important, fermentation regenerates NAD+, maintaining the NAD+ concentration so that additional glycolysis reactions can occur. The fermentation step oxidizes the NADH produced by glycolysis back to NAD+, transferring two electrons from NADH to reduce pyruvate into lactate.
                        Last edited by js290; 05-02-2012, 11:53 AM.

                        Comment


                        • Sooooo you pretty much need glucose in order to powerlift?
                          My chocolatey Primal journey

                          Unusual food recipes (plus chocolate) blog

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by sakura_girl View Post
                            Sooooo you pretty much need glucose in order to powerlift?
                            Beta-oxidation also supplies ATP to aerobic metabolism (Krebs cycle).

                            If your lifts are such that you hit the anaerobic fast twitch fibers, then you'll be burning off the locally stored glycogen at those muscles. Those fast twitch muscles are not capable of aerobic metabolism because they lack mitchondria. So they won't be burning glucose or fatty acids. Stored glycogen and glucose goes through two different pathways, Glycogenolysis and Glycolysis, respectively. The question you should be asking is how quickly the anaerobic muscles recover from glycogen depletion?

                            Comment


                            • But if you are heavy-duty powerlifting, you can only use pyruvate to lactate in order to get energy, assuming you are doing it correctly? So looks like you need a supply of glucose to do so because pyruvate is supplied through glycolysis from glucose? At least that is how I am interpreting it.
                              My chocolatey Primal journey

                              Unusual food recipes (plus chocolate) blog

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by sakura_girl View Post
                                But if you are heavy-duty powerlifting, you can only use pyruvate to lactate in order to get energy, assuming you are doing it correctly? So looks like you need a supply of glucose to do so because pyruvate is supplied through glycolysis from glucose? At least that is how I am interpreting it.
                                You are confusing the pathways. Pyruvate to lactate is anaerobic; locally stored glycogen. Glucose and glycolysis is aerobic. The problem seems to be most of you are equivocating glycogen and glucose.

                                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cori_cycle
                                Aerobic
                                Muscular activity requires energy, which is provided by the breakdown of glycogen in the skeletal muscles. The breakdown of glycogen, a process known as glycogenolysis, releases glucose in the form of glucose-6-phosphate (G-6-P). G-6-P is readily fed into glycolysis, a process that provides ATP to the muscle cells as an energy source. During muscular activity, the store of ATP needs to be constantly replenished. When the supply of oxygen is sufficient, this energy comes from feeding pyruvate, one product of glycolysis, into the Krebs cycle.
                                Anaerobic
                                When oxygen supply is insufficient, typically during intense muscular activity, energy must be released through anaerobic respiration. Anaerobic respiration converts pyruvate to lactate by lactate dehydrogenase. Most important, fermentation regenerates NAD+, maintaining the NAD+ concentration so that additional glycolysis reactions can occur. The fermentation step oxidizes the NADH produced by glycolysis back to NAD+, transferring two electrons from NADH to reduce pyruvate into lactate.
                                Last edited by js290; 05-02-2012, 12:57 PM.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X