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  • #46
    Originally posted by MamaGrok View Post
    jakejoh, the reason it can work in a lab and not in real life is because in real life, eventually, your body will overtake your brain and tell you to move less (b/c you're taking in more) or just ramp up your cravings so high that you eat more.
    But this does not mean that CICO is ineffective, you just have to find a way to make it fit into your lifestyle and make sustainable changes. In order to lose weight, you have to be in an energy deficit. There's no way around it. Yes, metabolism (more specifically, energy expenditure) decreases as you diet, but this is obligatory. As you lose weight, you burn less calories.

    Again, I understand that it's not just black and white, calories in calories out. But, it is the basis of a fat loss diet.
    My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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    • #47
      Originally posted by MamaGrok View Post
      Have you forgotten, though, about the studies where obese rats were given low calories and instead of losing weight, died fat? (I believe they were leptin resistant, IIRC.)
      Could you link the studies?
      My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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      • #48
        My experience with bulletproof coffee and eventually the RFL protocol was the start of my 45-50lb weight gain. I don't know if I took badly to low-carb or my body doesn't like eating lots of fats, but it was NOT working and I was in denial about it. Later tests show I shouldn't be having a primarily high-fat diet -- unsure if it's the CW way of thinking or legitimate, but my N=1 concurs. I keep natural fats in, but not as my main source.

        I had lost and maintained the loss of 55lbs before switching to Primal. When I switched to PB, I maintained for a few months, and then I discovered Bulletproof coffee. After a month or so, my pants were getting tighter... and tighter... and then I had to purchase the next size up. I dropped the butter coffee, but continued high-fat and continued to gain until I eventually stepped on the scale and went 'w-t-f'.

        Still finding my way back, slowly. I still have some MCT oil in my coffee (with a bit of coconut milk) but not a lot -- and at about 250 cals total, isn't too bad. I wish I could have accepted earlier that it wasn't working.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post
          But this does not mean that CICO is ineffective, you just have to find a way to make it fit into your lifestyle and make sustainable changes.
          But that's my point. If you deprive your body of the nutrients it needs (or that its bacteria or leptin receptors think it needs), it will actually take over your thought processes and overcome every ounce of will power you have and make you get the nutrients it considers most non-negotiable, somehow, someway.

          It is fact, and I have experienced it myself. It is the entire basis of Julia Ross' amazing work in freeing drug, alcohol, and sugar addicts from their addictions. As I said, my calorie intake *increased*, yet I lost weight, because I stopped feeding the inflammatory condition feeding the weight retention. And at another point, when I battled severe binge eating disorder, a simple replenishing of amino acids eliminated every craving I had. I know the power of primal urges for survival over the brain, but I never ever would have believed it had I not experienced it myself.

          Without proper nutrition, no amount of willpower is enough (which is why all diets fail after the person has spent long enough restricting calories). With proper nutrition, almost no willpower is needed - just eat what you need (from a variety of naturally available and naturally prepared unprocessed foods, or you risk re-establishing the deficiency that got you there in the first place) and depart.

          Sorry, no, I'm not a link collector like I was in the early days of the interwebz. I try to spend as little time as possible online these days; I've lost too much of my life in cyberspace. Besides, I find it's much more effective when people find the facts themselves. But this one's not too hard to find, so I'm sure you'll turn it up quickly.
          5'4" 39yo mother to five sweeties & married to their AMAZING DaddyGrok
          Current Weight: 175lb__________________________________Goal: 135lb
          Deadlift: 240lb________________________________________Back Squat: 165lb
          Bench: 130lb__________________________________________Pre ss: 85lb
          ***Winning a 20-year war against binge eating disorder***

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by MamaGrok View Post
            But that's my point. If you deprive your body of the nutrients it needs (or that its bacteria or leptin receptors think it needs), it will actually take over your thought processes and overcome every ounce of will power you have and make you get the nutrients it considers most non-negotiable, somehow, someway.

            It is fact, and I have experienced it myself. It is the entire basis of Julia Ross' amazing work in freeing drug, alcohol, and sugar addicts from their addictions. As I said, my calorie intake *increased*, yet I lost weight, because I stopped feeding the inflammatory condition feeding the weight retention. And at another point, when I battled severe binge eating disorder, a simple replenishing of amino acids eliminated every craving I had. I know the power of primal urges for survival over the brain, but I never ever would have believed it had I not experienced it myself.

            Without proper nutrition, no amount of willpower is enough (which is why all diets fail after the person has spent long enough restricting calories). With proper nutrition, almost no willpower is needed - just eat what you need (from a variety of naturally available and naturally prepared unprocessed foods, or you risk re-establishing the deficiency that got you there in the first place) and depart.

            Sorry, no, I'm not a link collector like I was in the early days of the interwebz. I try to spend as little time as possible online these days; I've lost too much of my life in cyberspace. Besides, I find it's much more effective when people find the facts themselves. But this one's not too hard to find, so I'm sure you'll turn it up quickly.
            You make good points. Certainly, as I said earlier, there can be other factors that play in, especially in situations of metabolic damage, disordered eating, and crazy inflammation. However, I think that this is in the minority of the cases rather than the majority.

            And I agree with you that prolonged caloric restriction is not sustainable, which is why diets that cause a spontaneous reduction in calories without the feeling of being restricted work so well.

            So again, I agree with most of what you're saying. However, to completely discount energy balance from a scientific standpoint is incorrect.

            And no problem, I'm sure I'll find it. Yes, the internet can definitely be a huge time suck.
            My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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            • #51
              I would never discount CICO from a scientific standpoint (where a human being exists in a vacuum and has zero choice in what he eats (although, yeah, see those rats ... they still died obese, even while starving)). But in any kind of real-world setting, it is very often worthless, because we are more than just wills. We have primal instincts far beyond our current limited scientific understanding.

              Nourish your body. That's the only way to lose weight for life.
              5'4" 39yo mother to five sweeties & married to their AMAZING DaddyGrok
              Current Weight: 175lb__________________________________Goal: 135lb
              Deadlift: 240lb________________________________________Back Squat: 165lb
              Bench: 130lb__________________________________________Pre ss: 85lb
              ***Winning a 20-year war against binge eating disorder***

              Comment


              • #52
                LOL, turned the "page" and came across yet another example of how our actions are controlled by far more than just our wills. In this case, probiotics change your brain activity: Changing gut bacteria through diet affects brain function, UCLA study shows / UCLA Newsroom
                5'4" 39yo mother to five sweeties & married to their AMAZING DaddyGrok
                Current Weight: 175lb__________________________________Goal: 135lb
                Deadlift: 240lb________________________________________Back Squat: 165lb
                Bench: 130lb__________________________________________Pre ss: 85lb
                ***Winning a 20-year war against binge eating disorder***

                Comment


                • #53
                  Gah, what I'm trying to say is that while CICO may be an accurate observation (may be), it is much less useful as a recommendation.

                  Proper nutrition leads to proper nutrient-seeking, balanced to the calories the individual needs, regardless of what level he may think he needs. Too high may lead to fat gain, or, if you're like my ectomorph hubby, may just lead you to move more, whether you want to or not. Too low will always lead to disease over time, and may lead to fat loss, or, if you have any of a number of very common situations (again, firm:bact skewing, leptin resistance, thyroid dysfunction, etc.), may just lead you to sit more so you preserve what little you *are* taking in.
                  5'4" 39yo mother to five sweeties & married to their AMAZING DaddyGrok
                  Current Weight: 175lb__________________________________Goal: 135lb
                  Deadlift: 240lb________________________________________Back Squat: 165lb
                  Bench: 130lb__________________________________________Pre ss: 85lb
                  ***Winning a 20-year war against binge eating disorder***

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Just saw this thread today... I've been using a cheap variation of Bulletproof Coffee for a year now, and love the results.

                    I use super-cheap Pampa instant coffee from WalMart - $1 a jar (don't tell Dave Asprey), and I put it in a larger jar, and add a few drops of pure cinnamon oil. I shake it around pretty thoroughly, and it infuses the whole jar.

                    I use 3 TBSP of instant coffee, add 4TBSP of Kerrygold unsalted butter cut into chunks, 2TBSP of MCT oil, and 1TBSP of stevia. I fill the cup about halfway with boiling water, whip it with a little battery-powered whisk until it's frothy, then top it off with more boiling water.

                    So - I'm starting my day with around 70 grams of healthy fats, and I can easily skip lunch. I have absolutely no shortage of energy, ever, and no issues with brain fogginess, ever.

                    Scheduling and budget snafus have occasionally prevented me from having KG butter and/or MCT oil on hand, and I've learned that overall, the butter is the more important of the two for energy, cognitive function, and curbed hunger.

                    It may not work for everyone, but it certainly works well for me.

                    Recently, I tried Mark's version - I whipped a raw egg into a small amount of cold water, and carefully added the whole thing to my coffee. Freakin' awesome, but it's not intermittent fasting, at that point.

                    butter.png

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                    • #55
                      I don't understand how one egg isn't IF if 4tbsp butter is?? Surely neither really count as IF?

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by laurathegoth View Post
                        I don't understand how one egg isn't IF if 4tbsp butter is?? Surely neither really count as IF?
                        I wouldnt say they do, but a small amount of butter or mct probably affects little in the scheme of things. Not sure about 4 spoonfuls though. Better to just drink black coffee

                        Sent from my GT-I8190N using Marks Daily Apple Forum mobile app

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by laurathegoth View Post
                          I don't understand how one egg isn't IF if 4tbsp butter is?? Surely neither really count as IF?
                          Apparently, fat doesn't interfere with the metabolic effects/benefits of fasting.

                          I get sometimes get hungry around lunchtime if I don't have butter in my coffee, so it does affect appetite, though.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by SteveO View Post
                            Apparently, fat doesn't interfere with the metabolic effects/benefits of fasting.

                            I get sometimes get hungry around lunchtime if I don't have butter in my coffee, so it does affect appetite, though.
                            Thank-you for clarifying for me

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              After I posted the graphic above (If you can't see it, it's Heath Ledger's Joker character with the text, "Put milk, half&half or cream in your coffee and nobody bats an eye. Put butter in your coffee, and everyone loses their mind.") a friend reminded me that another since-deceased friend put peanut-butter in his coffee for breakfast-on-the-go. LOL

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